Deity OCC Science Victory - G&K Strategy and Tips

[Fir]

yep, NC first and HG + Petra right after. used the techboost from NC to get masonry for marble iirc. didnt try for GL as it is nearly impossible to get on deity. cant remember if i built or rushbought the library though.



thats right, the bpt on the screenshot is mainly the result of the freedom finisher, which doubles the yield on academies (then 20 science for Korea) and also on the landmarks i settled with great artists (4 science with Korean UA). i also settled next to a mountain and thus had access to an observatory (extra +50% science) and focused on population growth whenever i wasnt building anything crucial in the city. because i also had a relatively large culture and gold output in that game, i was able to take the policy in the Patronage tree that gives science from allied city states and (at least in the late game) ally all of them that were not puppeted by the AI players. this accounted for about 200 bpt i think.
the bpt at the time of the screenshot are actually even lower than they were before (i dont remember exactly, but peak bpt was higher than 1300) because i had already finished all the spaceship techs and focused on production, e.g. didnt run any scientist specialists (and probably no merchants and artists) anymore.

that is very impressive mate. trying your save now for, i think, 8th time. did very poorly. at last managed to get HG+Petra (went straight to maths), but realized, that can't get education ->astronomy-> renaissance early enough, only at around turn 120 or so. i'll try to get NC first.
could you remember at around what turn you get HG and Petra?

 

[extrawelt]

Depends a lot on starting location and your opponent. In particular number of first wave of RAs depends very strongly on your opponent. By this time you don't have much possibilities to befriend other civs. Moreover, on King level others Civs frequently don't have enough gold. Any way, I feel that later RAs are much more important. Playing a game when one civ or two civs conquers others you can get at the end 1 or 2 (at most) RA and it is hard (on King at least) to win faster than T350+. On the other hand if there are some descent Civs you can sign RAs with, than even sub 300 is possible (on King again).

The rule is - higher level you can win faster since you get more from RAs.

Yeah, finally got some nice AI's and won on King's difficulty at turn 303... and yes, I've noticed that AI's on KIng difficulty often tend to be out of money, which is really annoying and I always try to get some gpt for money trades and then asking for RA.

One thing, for some reason, when I'm trying to sign RA's with AI's, they ask not only for the RA, but for some additional gold and open borders... does it happen to you too? It is really annoying, because all of them do not want to sign RA's on equal terms. What could be the reason for them doing so? Thank you for your help.

 

[Browd]

For each era you are ahead of the your prospective AI partner, you have to pay the AI an additional 100 gold, or its equivalent. So, for example, if you are in the Modern Era and your prospective RA partner is still in the Renaissance (not the best source of beakers, by the way), you will have to pay an additional 200 for the AI to enter into the RA.

That additional 200 could come in the form of gold, but could also be:

• A unique luxury from you and 40 gold from the AI (to balance the trade)
• 4 coal (worth 180 gold) plus 20 gold from you
• Open borders and 150 gold from you
• Etc.

 

[lionheart83]

I just won my first deity game using your strategy, after skipping immortal from emperor. Thank you.

Although it was far from optimal, finishing around turn 292, using Korea. I had a nice starting location with mountain, river, 2 wheat, 3 gold, plus a couple non-luxuries, but few grasslands and no flood plains/oasis for good population growth. At the end, I only had 23 pop. and in the 500s (default) and low 700s if I crammed all my specialist slots (slight starvation). I was only able to get 4 RAs at once, and that dropped down to 1 or 2 at the end as civs get eaten up by the superpowers. I was only able to get Oracle, PT, and Hubble. I did't have great culture so I went with 2 pts in Order for the factory science bonus then finished rationalism, timed to get nanotech.

I was at the SW corner of the pangaea, and Gandhi to my north was my closest ally throughout. Dido in the SE corner took out her northern neighbor extremely early, but I befriended her. Isa in the NE was the one everybody hated so I joined in on the circlejerk, but she held her ground for quite a while. Then Liz in the south central area started conquering the 2 civs between us, who were my friends, but before she could DoW me, I bribed Dido to DoW her, but that didn't last forever and as soon as they sign a peace treaty, she DoWs me. Fortunately I was able to upgrade all my gatlings to machine guns right before so I drove her off, but after peace with me she immediately DoWs Gandhi, who I have a defense pact with, so back to fighting I go. After a while I was forced to sigh peace with her again so she's not stepping all over my yard, slowing production/growth, but she continued to take Gandhi's cities until he was left with 3 well defended city behind a small mountain choke point. However, Dido, who just finished annihilating Isa, decided she has a grudge on Gandhi and attacks him from the sea and finishes him off. After that, I manage to bribe Dido to fight Liz again so the 2 superpowers go at it while I start building Hubble (no GE) and spaceship parts. It was funny seeing them nuke each other to oblivion. When they finally have peace, I was on my 2nd to last SS part but Liz obviously wants revenge and DoWs me again. But I have a defense pact with Dido so nukes start flying again (luckily none at me). This time Dido's giant death robots manage to take over Liz's 2 biggest cities, including London. So I hold off her giant army and air force with 6 mobile infantries while finishing the last SS part and winning the game. Was one of the funnest games I've played yet.

 

[EEE_BOY]

I just tried a game with Babylon and ToA opening, end game beaker per turn is only 600+, settled 6 academy before Lab and sign as many RA as possible (5AI friends) so no money to rush science buildings. end game pop is 33 and only finish on turn 279.

Guess ToA start slows things down a bit and lack of luxury resouce and RA partner also slow things down.

But it's a great strategy.

 

[Fir]

just managed to get my first babylon SV. great start location in my opinion. get HG, Petra, Sistine, Leaning, Porcelain, and Hubble of course. hit turn 200 with 700 bpt, finished freedom at 204, bpt jumped to 950. though finished game very late, 272. couple of RAs gave me literally nothing, nada, not a single beaker. have no idea how that happend. if some of mates interested, here is initial save

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

interesting, Fir. i wonder if Freedom finisher will net more bpt than Order factory bonus when doing OCC? It would be based on how many academies you settled but still I like it.

and you can get zero RAs if your relations with a civ dramatically changed before it completes. You basically go from DoF to hostile/guarded before it finishes and it will nullify the RA.

 

[Browd]

The issue with the Freedom finisher vs. Order/Planned Economy is, are you going to generate enough culture to finish both Freedom and Rationalism in time for the Freedom finisher to have a meaningful impact?

Let's say you take 4 in Rationalism (opener + left side) before moving to your Industrial policy. If you calculate that you are only 4 or 5 policies from finishing the required techs, best to take two in Order and finish Rationalism. If you project you are 8+ policies from finishing, Freedom may make sense.

But a better question is why are you 8 policies away? In an OCC game, that probably means you had few/no RA partners, poor population growth, or insufficient gold to rush-buy science buildings, or you missed some key culture wonders (CI, SC, Alhambra, etc.) and/or didn't build Hermitage early enough, or you pursued a sub-optimal tech path (perhaps required to deal with too many invaders), or some combination of these factors. And that still leaves you with the question whether you will get the Freedom finisher early enough for it to have a meaningful impact. All comes down to how quickly you anticipate finishing the required techs.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

freedom itself paid for a couple of those policies since theyre OCC cheap. the +2 ( plus modifiers) from wonders are significant boost. and the GP boost probly paid for an extra 1 or 2 GS. he doesnt mention actually finishing Rationalism. some just go to Uni bonus and stop if RAs arent plentiful. if it was 3 in Rationalism before Industrial and he had no intention of finishing it then it was 6 policies for the rest of the game. but seeing as he finished Freedom at 204 i think he maybe just opened Rat then went to Freedom then back to Rat for whatever was left, maybe 3 more policies from 204 to 272.

i often forget to pick based on relations too. taking order will anger every Freedom/Autocracy civ and at deity that matters for me. that decision by itself put some of them at hostile to nullify my RAs. also absent were culture details. not sure what his cpt was or CS allies. a faster time is definitely possible but i was just curious about that difference in bpt potential. i used to do the Freedom route in Vanilla and when i first learned about Order it was based on multiple cities and i havent looked back since. it just skipped my mind with OCC when you'll only get one factory.

ive tried his save, btw. it is a very nice start and multiple cities would be good for it. couple of nice mountain spots would easily get you under 250. i missed petra twice. both times they went about t70 when i was 7 or 8 turns from finishing it.

 

[Hyperion529]

i think its fine with Korea, but with every other civ i would choose order over freedom in most games for the reasons Bowd stated

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

im guessing factories arent considered science buildings for Korea if you took Planned. i generally agree, its just i havent seen a freedom sci vic in a while and it made some sense to me with OCC. i wasnt arguing that it was better, i just hadnt thought about that route in some time.

 

[Fir]

and you can get zero RAs if your relations with a civ dramatically changed before it completes. You basically go from DoF to hostile/guarded before it finishes and it will nullify the RA.

that is how the game works? hm, didn't know that. think this is just the case.

 

[Fir]

but seeing as he finished Freedom at 204 i think he maybe just opened Rat then went to Freedom then back to Rat for whatever was left, maybe 3 more policies from 204 to 272.

i often forget to pick based on relations too. taking order will anger every Freedom/Autocracy civ and at deity that matters for me. that decision by itself put some of them at hostile to nullify my RAs. also absent were culture details. not sure what his cpt was or CS allies. a faster time is definitely possible but i was just curious about that difference in bpt potential. i used to do the Freedom route in Vanilla and when i first learned about Order it was based on multiple cities and i havent looked back since. it just skipped my mind with OCC when you'll only get one factory.

ive tried his save, btw. it is a very nice start and multiple cities would be good for it. couple of nice mountain spots would easily get you under 250. i missed petra twice. both times they went about t70 when i was 7 or 8 turns from finishing it.

i opened with rat at about 110, than after scientific revolution went to freedom, finished freedom (at turn 211, sorry for misinformation here, just checked it more accurately) and went to patronage, because at that point i just started to research rocketry and finishing rat would gave me a little. i wanted to use free techs from rat for partical physics/nanotech. had to take 4 policies in patronage before finishing rat.
at the moment i finished freedom i had 8 academies

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

wow, so you had like 22 or 23 policies before the end of the game? (full tradition/freedom/rat, and 4 in patronage). that's some culture focus, much more than i expected.

i usually only get 14-16 in my sci games.

 

[Uberswank]

Ok, I HAD to share this start

Managed to pull off turn 227 with Korea.

I may even play this again and see if I can get lower, there were a few opportunities in hindsight.

Easy Cheesy, but still fun

Spoiler :

Faith Wonder, Desert FolkLore, Tithe, and kept Japan at war. Easy cruising, never warred as you can see by my units.

I didn't meet Russia and Mongolia until T110 or so and didn't become friends until around T180 and T150ish respectively. Should have traded for open borders with India to meet them quicker. Other than missing those RAs, had everyone else all game, 7 RAs the last few cycles. It was really nice to have them pop every 4 or so turns.

Planted 6 GS. Timed GS, GE, GA to all pop at 600 GPP level. Got 3 GS from faith.

Only managed to complete 10 policies, using the two free techs from rationalism to help finish off the tree the same turn that i popped my last faith GS which really gave me a jump.

Spoiler :

 

[kimadactyl]

I might have missed this elsewhere in the thread, but why do you ever *not* want GP? You talk a lot about "unwanted" ones but how can they ever be bad?

Edit: just got this answered in another thread - cost goes up for each one

Also really struggling to get my first GE - do you put someone in the workshop as soon as it's done? Haven't got one at all on my first try at this!

Very fun strat, thanks nearly nailed it but Carthage got Mech Inf like 5 turns before me and sent 10 of them at once, and was allied with my 2 neighbouring city states. Can't hold them off

 

[The Pilgrim]

I like working all or most GP slots. But avoid getting merchants and artists except for the very end. Artist can come in handy for the final golden age and parts speed up. If you build Temple of Artemis, you'll get GE naturally sooner or later. If not, staff the workshop. GPP management is probably the hardest part for me. You need to constantly monitor the whole business, and it's tedious.
Welcome to CFC, btw!

 

[kimadactyl]

Thankyou! This thread was the tipping point to join and ask questions I think

Yeah I got like next to no great people though. Is there a bit of dice roll involved or is it simply specialists+buildings+wonders?

 

[Browd]

Did you manually assign specialists? If so, you should have gotten GPs.

 

[kimadactyl]

Yes, I had university, school and lab filled as soon as they were able and got maybe 5 GS up to Satellites, and no GEs at all despite having a workshop and fact with specialists most of the game. Is that about right or did something go awry? Maybe I can't count

To ask it another way: how much bpt do you expect to have when lab is done and slots filled? Not sure how many academies I should have.