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Deity OCC Science Victory - G&K Strategy and Tips

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Sadato, Jul 2, 2012.

  1. clearbeard

    clearbeard King

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    Probably a combination of both, but mostly the difficulty. It's not unheard of for the AI to win in the early to mid 200's on Deity. AI bonuses get pretty insane on deity to the point that most mortals like myself can only win relying on tricks (like for this OCC thread) or in scenarios where the more limited scope mitigates the AI advantage.
     
  2. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    If you can keep the AI civs fighting among themselves, you can delay their victory long enough to eek out a late 300s science or culture victory, but it takes some luck (easier on Pangaea, since you meet all AI's early on and can more easily physically intervene) and you can't count on it working, so you should aim for a quicker victory in future games.
     
  3. valerie

    valerie Chieftain

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    Hello all,

    I'm a newbie/not terribly good player, and I've recently been trying this guide to get an OCC win. I'm actually trying this on Prince difficulty because I only got the game a few days ago, and it's a little discouraging that I can't get it to work even with a guide for a higher difficulty.

    Basically, I'm struggling with the gold, trading and research agreements aspect of it, which I gather is a large part of finishing in a timely manner with only one city. Specifically, even if I get lucky on luxuries, it's often that I can't find trading partners with the gold to afford it, which means my gold income is fairly low. That sort of snowballs into not being able to get research agreements, because let's not talk about me affording the 200-350g fee, my allies are often at 0 gold / 0gpt or in the negatives. I'm lucky to get 1-2 partners with money at a time, and they often don't want to buy my luxuries or strategics.

    How do you have the gold to afford all those research agreements? I suspect I may just be using my tiles inefficiently or something. My city always ends up pretty small because I'll end up being surrounded by another or several other civs, so I don't have a lot of options to micromanage my citizens.
     
  4. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    That is an unfortunate aspect of Prince -- the AI generates far less gold than it does on higher difficulty levels, which means less gold to trade for your luxuries and strategics and far less gold for RAs.

    On poor growth in your city, the most common early error is not prioritizing food tiles. The default city governor is not very thoughtful (it tries to balance everything), and overusing production focus is also a growth killer. Improve and lock down (through Citizen management) your best food tiles; you can then stay on production focus, but relock food tiles after population growth.

    If other AI cities are crowding you, take your military (you should have a non-trivial military, even at Prince) and conquer neighboring cities. After you bleed their military (to improve the AI's peace offer and create room to kill their city), pillage every tile in sight (to gather pillage gold and to heal wounded units) and then take the city. Assuming you are playing true OCC (checked the OCC box in advanced options), each city you take will be instantly autorazed, so your breathing room will be restored and there will be no happiness hit.
     
  5. valerie

    valerie Chieftain

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    Regarding this and poor growth, I think I was relatively happy with the pacing of my population, but my border expansions felt anemic with just one city and not too many +culture modifiers. Of course, I was under the assumption that I wouldn't be allowed to conquer other cities at all. So I stood there sadly looking at my tiny city boxed in by other civilization with all the shiny resources while I scrambled to trade for aluminum just to create my spaceship parts. When you raze a city, does it also expand your borders then and grant you access to their resources? That might make my life easier.

    Anyway, I finally got an OCC win on a lower difficulty (Warlord), so I think I'll practice some traditional 4-city strategies on Prince and slowly move to higher difficulties before trying for another OCC game.

    Thanks a bunch for your help!
     
  6. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Your borders do not automatically pop when you conquer a neighbor and their city is insta-razed, but room is created for your borders to expand in that direction. Even if playing OCC science, do not ignore your culture generation--both border expansion and plowing through Rationalism more quickly are important.
     
  7. JorshRod

    JorshRod Chieftain

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    I'm just working on getting my science victory turns under 270 this thread has been very helpful.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
     
  8. Harald Hairfair

    Harald Hairfair Chieftain

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    So I decided to give Deity OCC a go with Korea, Standard, Pangaea. At the moment I'm at turn 125 and just got education(turn 120). I have ToA and Petra, I settled next to a river, and a mountain and I have water tiles(city is actually coastal). I bought 6 archers and upgraded 4 of of them I signed 3 RA before education, and now I can only sign 1 RA for my first wave because I'm broke :(

    I wonder then, is signing RA with the AI before you get to education a good thing? Because if I didn't I could have signed 4 at the moment I got Education. At this point(turn 125 only one RA has kicked in, RA signed turn 89, and two at turn 109).

    I'm thinking of resigning. Firstly I messed up timing oxford with Astronomy(I'll have my next policy in 3 turns and I'm still 7 turns away from completing University. I did the build order that the guide suggest, but I'm lagging behind because I focused to much on growth. ATM my city is size 18.

    Secondly, I stole a CS worker as the guide suggested around turn 25. This backfired at around turn 50 when America my neighbor went Hostile(no DOW). America built two cities as close to my city as they could and they even stole a lux with a general. I had 3 Cotton, I'm down to two which means far less gold.

    Third, I just read up on this entire thread and found that the original guide is written for G&K pre december patch. Now the OP recommend religion, befriending CS, AI has less money, AI can win at turn 230 and RA is less effective due to bug being fixed.

    I will certainly play different next time. Just wondering if anyone can see signs of absolute fail already, or is there hope? :)
     
  9. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    Turn 120 Education with 3 RA's is late. If you sign pre-Education RA's, it's because you want to speed it up and speed Rationalism up, doesn't seem like your plan worked out too well.

    Usually players lag behind because they aren't focusing enough on growth, not vice versa. So I doubt that's the problem. 18 is not such a high number. With ToA and Petra it could have been higher. But it's totally map dependent. How many water tiles are there? You really don't want water tiles unless there is only a couple of them and they have resources. And even then it's questionable.

    America is an expansionist, stealing a worker has nothing to do with hostility and expanding towards you. That's how they roll. And most of the others on deity too.

    University at t132 is not a good sign. It's more of a public school range.

    I think many people feel frustrated with doing almost everything right and still being unable to pull this off. What they don't realize, that on 9/10 starts this won't work. You need a god tier start to have a shot. And even in those cases wonder spammer or crazy warmonger AI can ruin player's plans.
     
  10. Harald Hairfair

    Harald Hairfair Chieftain

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    And if you do pull it off, it will be totally awesome. At least that's why I think it's worth pursuing it, even though I have many defeats to come :)
     
  11. Vo01985

    Vo01985 Warlord

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    t132 public school range? I'm not sure what game other people here are playing but in all my games there is no way I can sign so many RA, because of my money being low, and the AI money being low (on Immortal anyway). It seems like AI has much less gold to spend than they did a year ago?
     
  12. clearbeard

    clearbeard King

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    Yes, one of the relatively recent patches increased how often the AI will rush buy buildings and units with an excess of gold. Even on deity where their income is so much higher it's not uncommon for you to have to provide them with the gold needed to sign RA's (in exchange for gpt, of course). If your money is too low that's a different problem, and you might want to explore ways to improve your economy.
     
  13. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    On immortal you have buy gpt, otherwise AI can't afford RA's at all. :(

    Of course getting public school in this range is not easy nor possible in every game, but that's kind of timeline you need to succeed at OCC on deity.
     
  14. Tokira

    Tokira Warlord

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    I tried this strategy, playing Korea on standard pangaea map with 8 civs and with one city challenge. I followed this guide as carefully as I could, but yet it was Arabia who won science victory on turn 266 rather than me. Until he won, I had no idea which one of us would win as I also had 3 SS boosters and the SS cockpit ready. I would have needed at least 30 turns to get the required techs + the time for the production (=about 35 turns) to win. None of the other AIs were even close to winning at this point.

    I don't know really what went wrong. As the OP was posted a year ago, maybe something has changed? Then again, as I got pretty close to victory I doubt that. The only mistakes I made were that I didn't remember to fill the scientist specialist slots (and I didn't know if I should have filled other slots as well) as soon as I got universities, but I remembered it about 10 turns later and remembered to set the specialist asap afterwards. I ended up using scientist through the whole game and engineers just before I researched satellites (so I could make sure I got it). After that I switched the engineers to work on tiles for more production. I got ToA, Porcelain Tower, Oracle and Hubble, but missed Petra (Theodora built it 1 turn before I researched currency). I would have had two desert hill tiles, so I suppose Petra would have been helpful. Another thing that I changed was that I used the 2 free techs from rationalism to get research labs faster (on replaceable parts and plastics) but in the end, since I would have needed 5 techs to win, I figured that it didn't matter that much.

    If anybody has some idea how I could have improved, I'd be most glad to hear about it.

    Some details about the city and the last turn:

    Start:
    - Next to a mountain
    - 3 wines and 1 silver next to the city (I was able to sell all of them for the maximum price all the time)
    - 2 floodplains tiles, 2 desert hills, 2 desert tiles, 3x cattle, 1x stone, 9 hills in total, 4 uranium, 7 coal, 3 aluminium, 1 plains tile, 4-tile long river and the rest of the workable city range was grassland
    - My city ended up being size 29
    - There were no wars in the game and I managed to befriend all the AIs, apart from Mongolia, which was annexed by Bysantium and Japan in mid-game
    - I was not able to form more than 2 friendships when I researched education, but it didn't take more than 10-20 turns until I had befriended everybody and I managed to get RAs from them after that

    A screenshot (just after arabia had won):
    Spoiler :

     
  15. Sadato

    Sadato Warlord

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    Well with BNW things have changed. More national wonders which is nice. Trade routes provide lots of money so it's easier to pay RAs and AI seems more peaceful. In the other hand you need three factories or modern era to get ideology which is hard for OCC (you can't get three) and only one city means fewer art slots and fewer tourism output. I'm currently playing OCC deity games to see what options you have. Venice using merchants for trade missions and without focusing on them (focus trade routes wonders and buildings) seems pretty strong. With 12 trade routes midgame you can buy many things.

    Still babylon / inca remain the strongest. I have to try poland with trad -> patronage / commerce / exploration. With oracle in modern era they ger a full policy tree for free.
     
  16. The Pilgrim

    The Pilgrim Deity

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    The main change is due to fall patch. AI spends its money and at the beginning of the game has less cash to trade, which can mean less sales for you and less RA's for everybody. However, the main idea is the same. Food, food and more food. Avoid working low food tiles at all costs (7 mines with unworked 2+ food tiles around? a big no-no). The only exception might be when you're building critical stuff like NC or PT. Your science rate is too low. Partially because your city is too small, partially because you don't work enough academies. As Korea you should plant as many as you can up to Scientific Theory. Not assigning specialists immediately is pretty bad. It means your GS came later, academy was planted later and you lost many beakers, i.e. many turns.

    If you wanted to speed up Plastics, you could have burned a GS + Oxford to do that instead of finishing Rationalism. There are still many policies you want to pick before that, like Order + Planned Economy or Freedom. Freedom is probably better with Korea, but in order to finish Freedom you need to push your culture really hard, and your cpt is not high enough for that. I assume you had very few if any CS allies/friends and those are really important. Maritime and cultural in particular. If you can to add Patronage + Aesthetics to the mix - even better.

    The last but not the least, as Korea you'd want to work more specialists slots than with any other civ, just be careful not to pop irrelevant GP.

    In general on deity t270 should be your mark. If you can't win by then, AI usually can.
     
  17. DGDobrev

    DGDobrev Warlord

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    Hmmm, with the new expansion and the new content, Deity OCC becomes rather difficult. Tourism has a big impact on your development and it seriously hurts your happiness if another civ heavily focuses on it (and let's face it most of them do). Have been tinkering with Babylon the last few days to see how it handles... Sadly some vanilla strategies don't seem to work anymore. Still, I bet there is a way to do it. Just need to find it.
     
  18. _megafone_

    _megafone_ Warlord

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    @Tokira: your pop is depressingly low for an OCC endgame. It seems that your starting location is low on food, so you got to focus major effort on maintaining some maritime CSs as your allies from the start. OCC is all about city growth, and you got to be able to maintain it at all times. Maybe gunning for Hanging Gardens would work as well, and it'd "fix" your issue of not having a river for Garden.
     
  19. DGDobrev

    DGDobrev Warlord

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    Allrighty... Finished a T306 victory with Babs. It was a slow going after the Modern Era, mainly because of the fact that suddenly 4 Civs (Polynesia, Brazil, the Celts and Germany) decided to denounce me in the same turn, leaving me with only Ethiopia and Sweden as allies.

    The map itself is freakingly barren for this start. I was seeing myself getting Petra and some oil, but all I had in my lands was 1 source of coal, 2 iron and 1 archeological site. That was it... No Aliminuim, no Uranium, no Oil, no nothing. I was keeping everyone happy through council selections, careful actions and such, but once you hit the ideology stage, you are bound to make some enemies. I went freedom (no wonder, we are going for science victory), while the most influential countries went Order and that was probably the point when I was set back. Maybe I should have switched to Order too... Didn't do it, so I had to pull through only by bulbing GS's and keeping 2 RA's active at all times.

    Anyways, it was fun to try the new content for the first time. Time to shave off a bunch of turns on the next try.
     

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  20. RubbeRNL

    RubbeRNL Chieftain

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    Your City size is too small, but i guess thats because of the many water tiles and low amount of river tiles (you need to farm every river tile, and the ones around your oasis).
    Try to fulfill the "we love the king day" lux quest asap (25% more growth) and theres a religion belief that gives you 15% more growth.

    I just finished my first occ science on immortal ( gonna try diety next) and had 50+ pop. U need more pop for more science. Without a mountain for the observatory, but loads of food tiles, i finished in turn 316, using Gandhi.
     

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