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Deity OCC Science Victory - G&K Strategy and Tips

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Sadato, Jul 2, 2012.

  1. DGDobrev

    DGDobrev Warlord

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    Location:
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    In my case the food was rather scarce (I was surprised to have gotten that far to be honest), but the location had a few luxuries, I could settle on T2 and it was great for a Petra start. With the new content, the going at start is very slow, cause you can no longer sell your luxuries off for cash unless someone really likes you. You can still give them out for GPT, but that still forces you to wait for stuff. Of course, the barren land around sure destroyed my ideas. I was hoping I would at least find oil in that desert and all I got was some iron and coal. GG.

    I was very pleased with the AI changes. It is not so dumb anymore and it doesnt stack the odds in your favor. Also, it is much less aggressive - I find it easier to fend off an enemy army attack, but harder to fend off OWN my army of dissidents cause one AI went building-crazy. You played India and that helps cause you get much less unhappiness from Gandhi. I was really struggling at some point (when everyone chose ideology and I had a revolutionary wave on my hands), which prolonged the victory itself.

    I guess I can only wish for that Mountain + 2 rivers start with Babs with the old content where I won at T227 :) Still, I am not much for restarting and when I see a mountain with a river and 2 luxuries nearby, I usually take it and see how it goes. Still I learned a lot from this playthrough - I think I will go with the flow the next time - so if 75% of the civs go order, so will I. It is much better to have 4-5 RA partners that none.
     
  2. RubbeRNL

    RubbeRNL Chieftain

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    Order does seem like the best choice, I went freedom last time, nobody else did .....

    Im doing my first attempt at diety with babylon, I added a screenshot and the save.
    I wonder how much jungle compensates for a lower overall pop, cos there's not a whole lot of food.

    For the opening I am trying [BNW] Old-school Babylon NC-first opening
     

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  3. DGDobrev

    DGDobrev Warlord

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    You need to grow and build at the same time. Settling next to the mountain is a must. Bad thing is that tons of old school strats dont work at all. Petra is now a T70-75 project and PT is 140+ even if u beeline. Now AI beats u to those 2 muuuuuch faster and it was the pinnacle of the science strat... bad news all across the board. Did a T291 this time... still too slow.
     
  4. clearbeard

    clearbeard King

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    On the other hand, you still WON at turn 291 so maybe it's not all that slow, with the new content. If the AI victory is slowed down proportionately, it's just a matter of "the new normal."
     
  5. DGDobrev

    DGDobrev Warlord

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    Tried Ribbe's save - it is kind of interesting, it can grow quickly, but it has so little production, that some things take forever.

    On the other hand, I had a great spawn today - kinda like Ribbe's save, but coastal, no river (there was one that can be worked though in the 3rd circle), jungle around and plenty of luxuries (3xGems, 2xBananas, 1xMarble, 1xSpice that can be worked at a later stage). Awesome start, isn't it?

    NOT. As I start to explore I discover Atilla right next to me, who promptly start coveting my lands right off the bat. Understandably, he settles 4 cities in my direction and DoWs on T35. I fight him off till T120 when Askia decides that he should covet my lands as well... You can imagine how this one ended :) Time to try again.

    And people say BNW is much more peaceful... Warmongers will always be warmongers. Starting next to Atilla, Ashurbanipal, Greece and such is still a death sentence. What's worse, you can't rip them off anymore.
     
  6. RubbeRNL

    RubbeRNL Chieftain

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    I would like to know how u get culture fast enough to fill the rationalism tree at a decent pace, do you run full specialists in the writer/artist guilds ? Musicians are pretty useless for science.
     
  7. DGDobrev

    DGDobrev Warlord

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    Location:
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    I try my best to stick to the old starategy - Oxford for Rationalism jump and as few stray policies as possible. Usually basic culture + hermitage is enough to get the RAs up and running. It has to be said that I never managed to get the left side of the Rationalism tree filled by the time I reach the PT. I also fill up the Rationalism tree very late in the game (keeping the free tech to bulb one of the last needed techs for parts) unless I have tons of jungle around and I can really use the Trading post spam strategy.

    I rarely go for full specialist until I reach the late game. Depending on the starting location, I only put a few scientists in the University and Schools to crank out GS at a faster pace.

    To conclude, Deity OCC is pretty much getting it done with as few policies as possible :) Usually the extra happiness deals with the dissidents, and I keep just a bit of tourism going to prevent from hitting the revolutionary wave.


    *******
    OK, old strategy managed to net a T283 victory on the first try, T281 on the second try and T279 on the third try (all I changed was my strategy after Hubble which was built on T241). This time, however, I had 5 research partners for a long time, and even managed to get the Aztecs to RA with me from T220 on.

    This is another Petra start, with very poor initial growth, but with lots of resources. Beeline to Petra is a must (before NC), and getting the Desert pantheon is paramount, as you can faith-buy a few Great People easily (I managed to get 1 GE and 2 GS with faith, and was only missing like 150 for a second GE - that would have been another few turns shaved off). Both of these will be difficult to accomplish, as Russia will go for both of them, and what's worse, the Aztecs are your neighbour. If you get past those 3 hurdles, the game runs really smoothly, as all other civs are usually friendly - I kept the Iroquous, Polynesia, America, Russia and the Dutch as friends throughout the entire game. Even the Aztecs gave up after 3 wars :)

    I am sure it can go below T275, but I failed to plan a few steals and GS bulbs properly. I did manage to time Rationalism completion with Rocketry and GE buy, so I pretty much finished hubble in 1 turn (free tech, swap, use GE). it was really cool.

    So one can go under T280 and/or T270 in any case.

    EDIT: Added the T240 autosave. I am sure there are people better than me who can get things going even faster than I did. Lots of RAs coming your way too.
     

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  8. DGDobrev

    DGDobrev Warlord

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    I found an awesome map today.

    Now if anyone wants to do OCC WITHOUT the mountain, take this fractal map save. It is 3 turns away from Victoria lake, and to sweeten the deal, next to victoria there is lots of desert/hill tiles with marble and an oasis! Granted - no river, but lake victoria is ok for a garden, and of course, if you go wonder crazy, no time to build river-based stuff anyway...

    NOTE: Coast/mountain start is possible (buying your way to the Lake is easy too) but the barbs are a pain - not so much if you forego wonders and religion in order to enjoy the 9 food awesomeness at start and build an archer or two.

    This save lets you net at least 3-4 early game wonders (I managed Hanging Gardens, Petra, Borobudur and Mosque of Jenne or Stonehenge - Pyramids - Halicarnassus - Petra for very early religion). NO OCC requirements switched on too - I was testing fractals maps - believe me or not I have NEVER played a fractal map!

    This is so much growth (worth a 38+ pop late game city T300+) if played properly, with only setback being no mountain nearby. 4-city tradition works wonders here. No aluminium, but 6 coal and 2 uranium available (1 tile tundra island to the South).

    The Lake is to the NE of the starting position. There is a barb camp nearby but you should be ok. If you venture with your warrior south you should pop a 20 culture ruin by T3. If you settle between the lake and the oasis, that's 50g from popping the ruin as well, so no problem getting to the marble in the corner of the island as well.

    Enjoy it!
     

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  9. phroggie

    phroggie Chieftain

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    I just followed this guide for an OCC Space Victory - and I had a blast, it was so much fun... thank you very much!

    I'm still scared of Deity (to be honest, I'm not even sure if I've tried it with Civ V - was very scarred trying it with Civ IV) so I did play this on Emperor which I'm now winning on most times. I've been playing since Civ I, and everytime a new expansion, version or 6 months has passed I always come back to Civ - to my surprise, even with large gaps of playing I tend to get better each time - and CivFanatics is largely responsible :)

    I wanted to post a screenshot but couldn't (I know how to, it's a monitor issue)... I know everyone else here is talking about Deity but I just enjoyed this game so much, and it went mostly right for me I want to share. I've played OCC in every version of the game but hadn't had much success with V, until now...

    Civ: Egypt
    Map: Small
    Land: Pangaea
    Diff: Emperor
    Speed: Quick

    It took me half a dozen or so tries until I got a great starting location... unfortunately I was following the original guide that said to have a mountain near your city, rather than plotting NEXT to a mountain (I presume that's a BNW change? I can't specifically remember). Rivers galore, some jungle, desert and a surprising number of resources... I was able to work every single hex.

    Never ever have I had such amazing growth, it quickly got over +20 per turn and even with production emphasised it never dropped below +25 majority of the game (final city 46 pop, a new best for me, 1 turn from 47). When I say Rivers galore - I put an academy on every mundane hex (desert and isolated plains) for 7 in total... every other hex was a resource or river. The entire game I probably averaged about 15% (of next SP) culture growth, did get up to 20% at one point... caravans and buildings got me ~150GP most of the game, finished with +903 science on turn 261.

    Being Emperor I was able to get 24 Wonders (inc national ones), generally the ones I didn't get were by choice. Siam was getting a lot of CS's onside, so I had to start taking them over... with so much culture I was spoilt for policy choice and did eventually invest in Patronage (most for the science boost one). I finished with all 16 as allies, and could easily have gone for world leader earlier - I placed a couple votes so I wouldn't as I wanted Space (and needed the steam trophy, I couldn't believe I didn't already have it, positive I've done it before - in fact I'll continue with this game to knock over a few more trophies). The CS's were a massive benefit, outside of the 2 early scouts and 2 aircraft, I never built any other army units - I was a bit short on cash occassionally and had to wait a couple more turns until I could resume a RA, early game I had 4 going consistently, late game 2 (of 5 other civs). I was never attacked, went on a distant war once as a favour to a friend.

    So I can easily imagine the extent of Wonders and City States would be nigh on impossible on Deity. I'm curious of the difference being next to a mountain would be, yes I would have had Observatory and Nachwenstein (sp?) but I would have missed out on quite a lot of workable hexes... in city build resources I had were (no particular order): Iron, Uranium, Wheat, Horse, Sheep, Silk, Horse, Cattle, Stone (nuts right?) and within my border: Coal, 2x Cattle, Horse, 2x Sugar, Oil, Gems, Wheat, Stone, Marble, Sheep - if I ever got a 2nd Great General I could have laid claim to another Gems & Cattle. So I'm very conflicted if plotting next to a mountain would have helped, as far as I can tell I would have lost at least 5 workable hexes.

    Deliberated a lot Ideology, Freedom or Order? I couldn't find any definitive opinions here (would love to hear thoughts), I eventually went Order - primarily so my factory could provide +25% science (especially as I missed out on Observatory)... I was expecting the fast building of space parts would be more useful, but as most only took me 3 or 4 turns to build, I only needed 1GE for the final part and speed up my victory by 4 turns.

    Final city stats:
    Pop: 46
    Food: +16.25
    Prod: +178.25
    Gold: +315.77
    Science: +673
    Faith: +4
    Tourism: +204
    Culture: +295
    Worked buildings (priority): Science, Production, Culture
    Currently working: to build the International Space Station world project (not really needed obviously!)

    So I know this probably sounds like a lame effort being on Emperor - the picture would be very different on Deity, but I HAD SO MUCH DAMN FUN - and that's thanks to this guide... I'll try this on the next one first (Imperial is it?) - on a large map I'd be very inclined to get into Patronage earlier.

    I'd love to hear some of your expert opinions on how different this game would look on Deity (presuming success) and how different it plays on larger or smaller maps (that size I picked for the trophy)... my guess is the Wonders and CS's would be very thin, thus culture, border size and social policies.

    THANKS!
     
  10. vanatteveldt

    vanatteveldt Emperor

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    Just won immortal OCC at turn 289 with Korea.

    At first I though I had a great location: coastal (for the cargo ships), mountain, riverside, 3 deer, 3 truffles and a couple of hills. I got the +1 food for camp pantheon, so each dear was 4 food 2 hammer, which provided a pretty quick start. However, the mountain and ocean really hindered my later game as there were only 18 workable tiles, 5 of which got academies. This mainly caused relatively low pop 28 and lowish production (peak 121 before spaceship modifiers) and science (peak around 600, I actually replaced two academies by mines when I got the research mostly done).

    I did get a religion to defend my pantheon, and got +1 food from camps, +15% productoin, ad +15% growth, so I think that is quite useful. I used the order ideology, for the science boost and the engineers, but with the amount of income/cash freedom might have been better. Had 4 RA's going more or less permanently until the end. Pedro was 3/4 culture and Washington on the way to domination, but although he was "scheming against me" a couple of times never attacked. My end-game military consisted of a crossbow, a pike, and a scout. (plus 9000 cash to rush buy a defense force when needed)

    Spoiler :


    I am tempted to try again with Korea with more workable tiles.
     
  11. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    Be advised this guide is not updated for BNW.
     
  12. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    I managed a OCC Science win with Korea on Immortal about half a year ago, it was on G&K and I think it was on an Archipelago map. I didn't actually play it all that well anyway, I planted my GSs, and didn't really follow a strict beeline plan. Perhaps that strat wouldn't have worked on Deity but it doesn't matter. Thing is, RAs all the way, use the free techs to spearhead the tree, play nice with everyone, use all specialists and absolutely positively have Porcelain Tower up and that Ratiionalism perk that gives a boost to RAs.

    As for the start, food tiles are a must so you can grow, hills are good also but naturally, a mountain is practically mandatory.

    Since I was playing on Quick, I finished about turn 210, but it was damn close, Netherlands were about one part behind when it was all said and done. Oh and, I remember there wasn't a single spot of aluminium on the map, but fortunately, I had just enough gold to instabuy a Recycling Center and that was it. I had two GEs all game, I used one for PT and the other for Telescope, I don't think a win is possible without either/both.

    Playing on Immortal/Deity is COMPLETELY changing the gameplan from Emperor or lower, because on Emperor or lower, you can easily get most wonders anyway, and if Egypt, Tradition and you have Marble, you're pretty much guaranteed even the elusive GL. If Egypt, you're also likely eligible for Petra, you can get Artemis and HG and from there, well, you're an early runaway and by the time AIs start catching up, the RAs will keep you ahead
     
  13. vanatteveldt

    vanatteveldt Emperor

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    Yeah, I noticed, so I took it more as inspiration than as a strict plan to follow. There is an updated discussion on reddit with some good ideas: http://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/1jmzof/bnw_deity_occ_science_victory_guide_details_in/

    One change seems to be that the AI is much less agggressive in BNW, for example I managed to survive with a military that didn't eve register on the replay chart.

    That said, it seems to me that the main ideas are still valid:
    - beeline science technologies
    - generate as many GS as possible, settle until public schools, than stash for an end-game bulbing binge
    - befriend all AI's, get as many RA's as possible
    - focus exclusively on growth, except for getting the key Porcelain Tower and Hubble Telescope wonders (for which you can probably get GE's anyway).
    - try to ally all maritime city states for extra growth

    The reddit topic suggests starting coastal, but I'm not convinced that it is worth it. The extra gold (say 10 gpt times 5 trade routes) have quite a cost in number of workable tiles unless the ocean has a lot of resources. Anyway, coast+mountain starts are relatively rare, and I think mountain + tiles > coast.

    A good Petra start might also be very interesting, I think with a sufficiently focused beeline a NC -> Petra should be possible, but that obviously depends on the AI. Maybe I'll try http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=533293, although arabia is not a very obvious choice for OCC.
     
  14. vanatteveldt

    vanatteveldt Emperor

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    (sorry for the self-reply, I thought I hit the edit button... anyway)

    Just scored a turn 276 win with Babylon. Things went pretty smooth, had a record number of great scientists (6 academies and I think 8 or 9 bulbs). Got a nice desert start, got the desert pantheon and +production +growth religion. Scored Petra and LToP. Ottomans were crazy big but never attacked (I did actually build some defense this time). Tech could have gone faster with more RA's, but china was killed early and Ottomans and Denmark never wanted to DOF, so only had 2 RAs going most of the time. Interestingly I ended up 2nd in pop, at almost half of the sprawling ottomans that had 10x the amount of land...

    Spoiler :



     
  15. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

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    I just got a turn 310 with Korea on Deity. I messed up my Oxford and wasted it on Astronomy without enough gold to get the Observatory. I also had to guard against Washington, he spawned right next to me. Another few turns and Washington would have launched. By the 300s all remaining civs were making spaceships.

    Spoiler :
     

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