Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Sadato, Jul 2, 2012.
DGDobrev: WOW, look at Austria! very nice victory!
A 23 pop city at 300ad is amazing. Did you ally any Maritime CS or it was just the farms around the capital?
Enable policy saving + max out only one of the top policy tree = spend the rest on Rationalism when you get it available.
Thanks Sadato, great tips. I only managed a turn 259 win, but considering it was only my second attempt at Deity OCC, I'm pretty happy with it.
I went Babylon, planted my free academy on a 2 food tile so I wouldn't be hurting my growth in the early game, then got ToA and the 10% growth pantheon, and my capital's growth was insane, even outpacing Delhi... on Deity!
In fact, I was growing so fast I managed to fight off Gandhi's religion long enough to hit pop 21 before losing my pantheon's 10% growth bonus. I peaked out at 32 pop somewhere around turn 230. I could easily have grown to 35 if I'd wanted but there was no point really. I was already working all my good tiles by then, even with my specialist slots in use.
Anyway, I was hurting on production and money the whole game. I had to wait as many as 20 turns to build things I needed like the Hermitage, just because I was so far behind on production. Then, to make matters worse, I forgot to max my artist slots, so I didn't get the +50% from RA until MUCH later than I should have.
Also, the AIs were extorting me for research agreements, sometimes asking for as much as 200 gold!
Pretty pleased with how it turned out though. I got Hubble, but I still almost lost. Sejong was by far the dominant AI and we were neck and neck on tech the whole game. I only beat him to the space race by 1 turn. (I could see from my spies that he was building the last booster)
All in all I bet I could shave 30 or 40 turns off that win with a few corrections.
I found that spies really did help. Early on I leveled up my spy by stealing low-hanging military techs from Attila (who was safely on the other side of the map) and then moved him to defense at special agent. In the mid-to-late game I killed a lot of spies, and used my other spies to see what Sejong was building. I would move them back to the hideout for a turn to avoid stealing his techs and losing a key research agreement. Still not sure if that was the right approach, but in my previous OCC attempt, I'm certain I lost because I pissed someone off for stealing and couldn't keep enough RA's going as a result.
Anyway, once the end was near I managed to time it so I could steal a few key techs from him right before I completed Rationalism. (He went the nuclear route before I did)
The well-timed thefts allowed me to pop Rationalism and immediately finish the last two techs for a spaceship part.
Of course, I should have completed Rationalism MUCH earlier, but oh well.
I also used the GE+GS+GA timing trick to trigger a golden age and rush Hubble at the same time. Still, I made my share of mistakes. I'm never going for the Oracle again, ever. That free social policy is evil.
Another mistake I made was signing 4 or 5 more research agreements than I needed to. I could have spent that money to outright buy a nuclear plant. Instead, I was getting Future Techs for free in the end.
Whoa, I have been so busy with Mesix's challenge thread that I forgot about this one
Austria was indeed the big runaway here. At one point, the fat lady was buying a new CS almost every turn, effectively expanding faster than light It is really good that the others were couping from time to time... Otherwise I think she would have beaten me to it. She already built a bunch of parts and I wasn't sure how far was she from the last one. I must say the RA's with her were the best though - effectively gaining 2 late-game techs in a turn. This game sure was a blast
I always do my best to ally with Maritime CS. It is not an easy thing to do in an OCC, but it is possible. However, most of the growth came from Petra. You must really beeline to it after NC and go all-out production to get it, but it pays off big time. It is also down to the great start as well - I managed to settle relatively early on and even enjoy 2 wheat and many flood plain tiles (no Petra effect there, but they are great all by themselves). I even had to buy some of those tiles to ensure they don't get stolen - and in the process, antagonize Atilla, who was coveting my lands for a long time...
The production was kinda low for a while, so i made the factory and the hydro plant a priority. I also skipped many wonders - and I must say that when you care only about a few select wonders, the game flows much more smoothly and is less of a bother
I beat my record today, turn 222!
Petra is huge if you get the start. I was very lucky with this one. I got Grand Mesa as my mountain. Also, I had Desert Folklore spread to me which gave me 2 GS. Woot.
Love the guide!
Excellent guide Sadato
First attempt playing Deity, and Pacachuti. Got a T232 win, 1610AD. Score 1826. Pangaia, standard everything bar OCC checked (G+K, DLC civs and wonders of ancient world).
AI: Maria Theresa, Liz, Washington, Haile, Darius, Kamehameha, Gustavus.
Starting spot was:
Settled on the gold T0 and went for ToA opening. Archery, Mining, met Jurasalem first so pottery next and rush bought a shrine as felt desert folklore would be worth it. Got pantheon T43 and Religion T67. Enhanced a little later: Desert Folklore, Tithe, Plowshares, Religious Community, Defender of the faith. Had zero wars so Plowshares was leveraged hugely. Was 28 pop at T130 (375AD), 32 pop at T145, and finished on 43 pop.
Didn't spread, and actually got Hagia aswell as didn't have anything else to build. To get a bit extra faith generation and generate an additional GP to keep around. In hindsight perhaps should've settled him. Not sure if by himself it would've generated an additional faith scientist (I got 2), but might've helped with gaining a few CS quests. I anticipated to come under more pressure from natural spread of AI religions. Accidently let Kamehameha let a GP into the lake next to Cusca near the end, so he did have some use, plus a couple of times used him to boost Title by 1-2 gpt.
Other than that pretty straightforward really. Made a few mistakes. Didn't steal any workers, bought both, but made a mistake in that first one probably could've bought 2 or so turns earlier (had c. 250 gold before I loaned).
Research agreements did alright for getting. 6 in first and second wave, 5 in third, 4 in fourth. Every AI denounced Sweden early game. Would've liked to have utilised his UA to help with GP generation, but figured I might as well join in the denouncing to gain favour with the others. Liz backstabbed me just before second RA resolved, but didn't declare only denounced. Washington the same before the fourth wave.
Hit Education T105 (went construction first), but signed a couple prior when the AI had hit it first. Not sure if thats in anyway non-optimal? Made a silly forgetful error when signing the second wave. Would've required hefty loan to get Polynesia the same turn as the others, so decided to wait one turn. I ended up forgetting and so 4 turn delay. That was my main error in the game, and stopped me getting a sub 230.
The other annoyance was whilst I'm 99% I didn't have any RA crazy boosts, I'm pretty positive I had a dud with Liz T160. She was 2nd tech leader and pretty much neck and neck with me close to that point. I Had researched Electricity, Industrialisation, and had shift clicked Plastics, which starts researching Radio which I'd put around 3 turns into. Couple turns before her RA resolved, figured best not to advance an age due to increased cost (Haile's RA coming up), so switched to Steel, which was showing 2 turns and Gunpowder 2 turns. So following turn 1 turn for Steel, 2 remaining etc. Clicked next turn, Steel discovered from my science and expecting a boost, and just ends with 1 turn remaining on Gunpowder. My last save before that point was T146, where I unlocked Free Thought. Liz was 49% Literacy, I was 46% at that point, generating 359 BPT; Steel would've cost 424 and Gunpowder 704 (and possibly less by T160 if other caught up due to "known tech by other civs" discount). Can only assume it misfired, unless her denouncing couple turns prior affects it?
Probably mucked up my burnt scientists nearish the end too. Had 4 with another faith one coming. 3 turns to next social policy. Figured I'd finish rationalism now so that not delayed by waiting for a policy to come, so thought It'd take 2-3 GS burns to research Ecology and Mobile Tactics. Seemed to take all 4 and no real overlay to the bottom half of the tree, so the bottom half seemed to take an age after whilst waiting for RA to resolve. Probably should've saved the GS burning closer to the RAs for boost.
Was possibly a bit too cautious at times due to first time on Deity. Not sure whether could've possibly bought some friendship with CS to speed up left side rationalism a little. I got the odd quest which helped but possibly could've got through quicker if used a bit of cash. Ended up deciding to build Taj Mahal for the Golden Age to make absolutely sure I'd get Scientific Revolution on time. Got the policy around 3 turns ahead of the second wave in the end, but using artist slots to push through meant that couldn't avoid generating a Great Artist mid way through after I'd generated a scientist. Hagia and Taj possibly contributed too, but more so the artist slots that needed to use. Saved it for a later golden age. Built Louvre near the end for a couple more and one more natural generated one, after I wasn't getting another scientist, so was in perma golden age for last 35 turns ish.
Liz got Oracle. I'd put a couple turns into it prior to Education in case was still there after but went pretty early. I could've finished it before her had I carried on, but would've only been able to take commerce opener. Also would've mean activating a cultural CS quest, and that additional CPT would've meant a pointless policy and delay in the rationalism opener.
Opted for NC over trying straight for Hanging Gardens.
Still good game, and a win on Deity at the first attempt so pretty pleased. Cheers for the Strat!
Policies: Full Tradition g(Legalism = Opera House), left side Rationalism, Planned Economy; right side Rationalism, Nationalism.
Research Agreements: 98 England; 102 Ethiopia; 105 Persia, America, Austria, Polynesia; 129 England; 133 Ethiopia; 136 America, Austria, Persia; 140 Polynesia; 164 Ethiopia; 167 America, Austria, Persia; 171 Polynesia; 196 Ethiopia; 198 Austria, Persia; 202 Polynesia.
Wonders: ToA 32, Petra 80, Hagia Sophia 111, Pisa 134 (hard built - Scientist), Porcelain (rushed) 137, Sistine 139, Taj Mahal 148, Statue of Liberty 178, Cristo Redentor 186, Hubble (rushed) 196, Apollo 197, Louvre 206.
scientists; 10 overall I think. 5 settled, 5 burned. Pisa, Porcelain, Hubble, 2 faithed, 4 naturals.
Golden Ages; 130, 148, 195, 206, 214, 224, (232); 2 happiness, 1 Taj, 4 Artists.
31 pop at T142
Launch T232 - (There's an academy the tile where the Great Prophet is in case can't see it)
opening and closing save attached:
well, my first try failed but mostly because i tried it without a mountain. i used babylon to good success up until the industrial era. i gave up at t290 with 3 parts complete but about 40turns till the last tech was done. without the observatory my bpt was only ~480. wouldve been 700 if i had a mtn.
i ran into a runaway Austria, who conquered ethiopia, william, china and wiped them out completely. there was only 1 CS left on the board. she married or conquered all of them (except rome and spain who both conquered one). and oddly enough Attila didnt conquer a single CS. t290 my score was about 650 and Maria's was 4800. She made apollo and 2 parts, the manhattan project and no nukes, and she even made the UN when there were only 6 total votes in the game. truly a wacky experience. but im going to do it again, just im gonna have to make sure i get a mountain.
Keep trying. You'll get one. The best part is they dont take long to play, but they do get repetetive.
in one now with a mountain but no river (so no gardens or bonus gold). ill see how it shapes up.
odd fact i just learned: i might still be operating on old vanilla myths, but i settled an academy on a Wine lux to see what would happen and I didnt lose access to it to resell. On top of that I had the pantheon of +1cult/+1 faith for wine/incense AND a Monastery faith building. the settled academy retained all of those bonuses too. im gonna do a replay so that i can settle all my academies on them. they turn into tiles that produce +1 food/ +3-4 gold/+8-10 beakers/+2 culture/+2 faith. and because they were on plains by a river, they had a hammer too.
I played an Inca game but suffered from low food at my site and didnt reach for ToA or HG early. As a result my science output was too low. Even though I signed 20 RAs, its t216 (size 18 - 320 BPT only)and I am 15 turn from Atomic Theory.
It would still be a win, but not a 250 turn win.
Last night I tried the save from the OP with Holland, and finished on turn 221. Would have been turn 220 but I messed up at the end.
Observatory and rivers are a must. To respond to Bud and Hammer. Religion really has very little to do with the strat, and be careful not to get too much culture. I got Petra and ToA and had no choice but to pop a GE very early. Getting the free amp from Petra forced me to open the Commerce tree. But I built the Oracle going into Renaissance to still open Rationalism Tree. Saved my but to get to SR on time.
One thing I learned from this strat is that every AI can be somewhat tamed through trade. The Op stated he was DoW'ed alot from Austria in his attempts. She DoW'ed me once and the rest of
the game she wasn't the best of friends. But still was getting 5 RA's a shot X3, even though I didn't need the third round of RA's. All it did was give me 5 Future techs and then bugged out giving me my final Future Tech 28 turns to complete.
Selling lux's to the most likely AI to be mad with you will greatly deter them from being mad. Also, use those spys alot. It really helps. having the run away civ like this is not easy. Best strat for this from my experience, is to win very early.
HG is bad for this strat. The GA points will compromise getting GS's to spawn. I learned the hard way on a game. ToA is vital as is Petra if you get the start. Food is vital as is gold.
Any who, was very fun.
ive gotta replay this particular save i have. mtn/river start (move once with settler) and 4 wines and 1 incense plus a late game dyes on the 5th ring (for late happiness). the first time i played i had severe growth problem. turn 200 only 15 pop, no ToA or growth buildings but finished Tradition pre-100 and aqueducts were hardly helping. from 15 to 16 was like 27 turns with the aqueducts. i made some improvement mistakes (lumber mills instead of farms) and should rectify that later. i also had poor CS choices early on. Didnt friend/ally food CSs as i met them very late (continents map that had 2 culture, 2 faith, and 2 mercantiles on it).
Also, because of the early meeting of the faith CSs, I actually founded the first religion with BABYLON on DEITY! I didnt even think it was possible unless you played one of the religion-strong civs. 8 faith (4 from 2 CSs) and a shrine got me a pantheon (+1 cult/faith from wine incense) with 15 faith and later the first religion at t62. im still stunned by that, with babylon of all civs. i took tithe and monasteries (doubled the wine incense bonuses, netting 7 cpt/fpt) and bought it at 150f about 8 turns later. its gonna be hard to take a food bonus with those luxes around but i might try it. i need a 25+ city to really get more bpt late game. still stuck at sub 500 by the time Labs are up. the GS pops were only getting half a tech in the atomic age.
plus RAs were nowhere to be seen. 5 civs on my continent (danes, persia, iroquois, atilla, and ottomans) all warring with me for coveting my OCC lands. Only the Danes agreed to full trade values but never a DoF. The only RA i did sign was canceled as Ottomans got removed from the game by Attila. finally found Egypt and England after t200 but too late to max RA benefits.
what are good OCC bpt numbers? Only getting 1 of each tech building and mediocre growth is so bottlenecking. im used to 700-900bpt number in 3-4 city games.
edit: i'll upload the save for others to try when i find the autosave turn 0. its Gnk/vanilla/all dlc except cradles.
here it is. the one below it is just after moving to the spot i settled on for the mtn. just hit next turn.
View attachment AutoSave_Initial_0000 BC-4000.Civ5Save
Hang in there Hammer Rabbi. It took me many tries before I got it all to click. It doesnt work on every map you start, which is fine. What bothers me is that so many success stories include Petra (as did mine own). I dont like that at all, since Petra acts as a double city in many ways.
Petra is huge. Really game changing.
I have been running these OCC science strats for a few weeks to see if I can beat my record. It's alot of fun.
I got a religion once and it really isn't all that useful, and can be detrimental if you spend hammers or gold on it at all. The OP is very right about not wasting time on it.
So far as BPT, my last game was around 500, and I have gotten as high as 700. Depends on the size of the city.
Right now I'm doing another Inca, turn 159 and city is 33 Pop. Petra and ToA included. I love that wonder (Petra). Should have been #1 in the elimination thread, looking back at it.
This is going to be a record breaker this one.
I'm including the save. Such a perfect start. Salt as the Lux is really great. Just move up and to the right a turn to get it. I am signing RA's with everyone right now. No wars. Celts were wiped out early so only six RA's, lol.
View attachment AutoSave_Initial_0000 BC-4000.Civ5Save
uzumati, i couldnt get even 3 RAs in my game. everyone hated me simply for existing. they coveted my lands. it's OCC. what else can i do, haha? in my save im on the same continent with Danes, Persia, Iroquois, Attila and Ottomans. so yeah, 4 of them declared on me (Persia being the exception). starting around t65. i met egypt and elizabeth on the other continent late game n got 3 ra's between them but egypt had 3 space parts before i finished my first booster so i couldnt sign any more with him. eventually persia won with a cult vic before him. if i had 3 more ra's i wouldve had a chance. maybe.
Hammer Rabbi - The guide is meant for Pangea. You are gimping yourself if you go Continents.
You can’t stay neutral and be friends with everyone all game long. You have to be ready to pick a side and that can lead to war. So you need to have those archers and the pike man in place. Usually there will be one civ (looking at you Rome) who everyone else hates and you can denounce him if need be and pick up some instant friends on the next turn.
I was lucky last game. I had RAs going with all civs all the time, but I was ready to denounce Rome if things got bad.
That's exactly the thing. This challenge teaches you a great deal, with the top 3 for me being:
1. How to micromanage a city - being able to switch between growth and production on the fly is very important.
2. How to prioritize - since the AI techs up fast, steals key wonders, grows big armies and wins quickly, you need to develop a strategy to accomplish the same.
3. How to pay attention to global politics - there is usually one bugger who is universally hated. That's usually one of the warmongers, or one of the usual backstabbers (in my experience, that includes Sweden too, which is a shame).
Knowing who's universally denounced, or which civs adopts what kind of posture or attitude is also very important. For example, Siam rarely DoW's, China has been a friend to me in every game, Greece starts with an early rush and denounce, and then lose to the first AI who techs better than them etc.
Had another go starting last night, going for Babylon. Deity again, pangaia all standard except OCC and with G+K, DLC civs and ancient wonders.
No Petra this time, and was a bit of a mess of a game really compared to the Incan game . Clustered with neighbours of Ghengis, Caesar, Napoleon and Cathy. Lucky me! Got an eventual win T276. Not brilliant but still pleased to get 2/2 on this challenge so far, considering not played Deity before.
Got DoW'd T36 from Ghengis, who I held off with an spearman (hut upgraded) and archer. built another to make sure. Finished Artemis T37. War delayed hooking up my luxuries to the south, as did having to cut through jungle. Didn't manage to steal a worker so took a while to get a second one out too. All tiles south of the mountain line and that one riverside farm were jungle. Initially I thought awesome for a science VC, but despite Artemis, struggled to get particularly good growth for a while, or production and money, so most didn't go to use. No-one had a duplicate of my "We love the king" desired resource. Should've chopped to build that lakeside farm earlier, and shouldn't have settled that riverside academy where I did.
Wars and emphasising growth over production meant got pretty delayed on stuff.
Post war became decentish friends with Ghengis, though slightly annoying when a city popped up on my borders just as I was sending a unit down there to scout/block (especially when coal revealed). My first declaration of friendship pre-education was France, who soon after took a city state and got mass denounced. Wasn't positive but presumed I'd get a backstabber modifier if I did the same so waited off until friendship expired to get in the mass love-in, making friends with everyone bar Rome who just hated everyone. Everyone else went to war. Everyone else seemed to spend all their money on war.
Hit education T95. Hard-researched astronomy as opposed to Oxford as would've taken same time to build. In hindsight, whilst meant could save free tech to later, also meant research to Pisa was delayed; which I lost out on, after scrambling for a workshop and ironworks first. Hardbuilt Porcelain T156, but Scientific Revolution T193, ergh! Opened rationalism one turn after completing Astronomy too. Took a long time to get Opera/Hermitage up. Didn't get banks/National treasury up till around T220ish I don't think. Science buildings and then production ones took precedence, had to hardbuild all including nuclear.
Rushbought the observatory after it would've taken 14 turns to build, which ended up leaving me short for second wave. Money was an issue all game. Not just for me but for my allies. Russia finished the game with around 30GPT. Sweden were poor for the majority too. Supplementing them with loans, meant I was pretty cashpoor, getting close to a deficit at times (T193 1GPT) and research agreements weren't so much in waves but isolated dribs and drabs.
France Dow'd T134, managed to hold off his Musketeers, longswords, crossbows & trebuchets with 5 bowmen, 1 catapult (CS gifted), and 2 pikes. Never got a chance to build a walls. The Citidel was a lifesaver. Sacrificed a worker and my initial scout. The army in the pic is what remained. Despite my spies reporting Ghengis and Rome were plotting against me and an army heading my way, felt at that stage I couldn't delay to build more units (nor afford to upgrade). Was either I carried on to manage a win or was Dow'd and likely lost. (Rome finished with a military score of 762k to my 49K) Managed to earn favour through espionage and forgiving them their espionages.
At launch, Hiawatha and India both had 4 parts built, Rome 3. UN vote was in 4 turns. I had 7 projected (all the AIs), Hiawatha 7 too as builder, 6 CSs and 26k in cash. All 5 adjacent neighbours had completed Manhatten; Ghengis by 228 eek! He had stacks of air-doom before that too.
Research Agreements: 95 Russia, India, Iroquois; 99 Sweden; 101 Mongolia; 126 India; 130 Iroquois; 137 Sweden, Mongolia; 143 Russia; 159 India; 161 Iroquois; 168 Sweden; 174 Russia; 197 Iroquois; 202 India; 210 Russia; 227 Mongolia; 230 Iroquois.
opening and closing saves. I didn't take 24 hrs, left it on overnight so its all 1 session start to finish.
well how about at war with 2 of 5 rather than 4 of 5. i know i cant stay at peace. it's why i have 4-6 bowman and a few pikes and maybe a treb or 2 for counter attacks. (pesky cities taking up my 4th and 5th ring tiles need removal often, haha.) i made it to t297 once before losing to culture from Persia. But 4 out of 5 dow's means no RAs and then if you can get them you pay out the nose for them (like 100g+ and luxes for one RA).
i tried several pangea loads but never got the mountain start. i also got snaky lands with dead water tiles in the 2nd and 3rd rings often. Oval map is decent for this but I didnt get any mtns in 10 loads and they almost always stick me on the coast. I'm gonna try my save one more time as i was very close to it last time. i just need to get a couple scouts to the other continent much sooner.
quick question slightly related: when you check OCC and you go after a capital, what happens? all other cities just go poof, but what about caps? also, im guessing you can only liberate CSs on OCC?
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