Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by soundjata, Aug 13, 2020.
I was indeed lacking REP a good part of this game +3 scientists meh.
There is so much food along, I think the Oracle is near as good as the Pyramids. Oracle -> CoL unlocks an early Philosophy bulb, which just... fits perfectly.
This map has the "perfect little corner" that is ever so seldom on Pangaea. I'm planning on 8 peaceful city spots and see no need for a pre-Renaissance war if I can land the Mids. (I don't game much, these days.)
SPI really is the greatest trait, here. Go Caste to reach 2nd ring fish, back into slavery for granaries/settlers whips, switch into Org Rel for Pyramids, then the infamous BC switch into Rep, Caste, Pacifism...
I'm sure i'll lose this but sounds like fun even when I inevitably go down in flames... I played to turn 50 so far:
Settled 1E because it looked slighlty better... saw flood plains to my east and nothing to my west.
Order so far: Worker --> Grow to 3 --> Worker --> Warrior --> Chop Settler --> Settler --> starting pyramids in capital.
Agri --> Mining --> Bronze Working --> AH --> Pottery --> Writing
I improved the wet corn first, then the gold, then the plains hill, then chopped. since I'm imp, the plains hill is actually slightly better for producing settlers than the dry corn is...
I figure if i can't use pottery, this has to be a pyramids game, so I settled stone first, which delays my Axemen for barb defense... unfortunately...
A mob of barb warriors plus a 0.3 hp archer (phew!) attacked my stone city... plus another barb warrior attacked my capital from behind just before i could get the 2nd settler back there to fogbust the couple of squares back there. Good thing it wasn't an archer or I'd probably be dead already.
I lost 2 warriors in the bloodbath in the south but the city and the stone are safe... I almost have a mine on that random desert hill just from my worker sitting there waiting for the wave of barbs to finally stop coming so I could road the stone... i'm regretting not building my road through the grass hill... hopefully the barbs are done now but I'm going negative food in thessalonica to spam more warriors in case there are more of them to the south... actually, a barb city seems to have appeared there, not sure how long that's been there. Doesn't a city mean they'll (probably) stop attacking?
But I haven't been able to fogbust enough, maybe I should have delayed my settler to build an extra warrior early game so I wouldn't have this problem. live and learn.
Once my cap hits 6, I should switch off of pyramids and build more settlers & workers. Not sure how many. Depends how badly I want that horse city. How fast do the deity AIs usually finish the mids, anyway? Both stonehenge and GW went at 2400... which seems about average for Deity, right? Not sure what goal time for pyramids is reasonably safe...
As for long-term plan... well bureaucracy is pointless, isn't it? Since I don't have fishing, and i'm going to be running a lot of scientists, maybe I should just try engineering rush... then I have to skip fishing, so i lose two good tiles... not sure if its worth. Could start with elepults then convert to ele trebs later, maybe, then elecataphract? I'll have to plan this out this weekend. Seems like a challenge!
t80 : This is cheating, I will not accept it !!!
Is anyone playing this WITH cottages as the control group? That would be interesting as well.
You got cheated man.
Did you go org religion at least ?
edit : was replying to BIC.
Yay Sampsa is the control group
1120 BC switch into Hereditary Rule, Caste System and Organized Religion.
This is my earliest save. The Caste Switch prevents me from getting any better timing.
Next save I have is 1320 BC with Wang getting Alphabet. I don't really wanna reload from that far. Plan was a beauty.
3 settlers out. Great Scientist popping this turn... Confu spread is poor but I could work on that - who cares about diplo anyway ? I don't think I ever got the whole combo that early (Rep, Caste, Pac).
The control group is trying to continue their given task asap.
For me it's rather amusing that the cottage guy is also choosing the most straightforward/aggressive line... Also lovely how different everyone is playing. I still think all roads lead to Rome with such a start.
Yes, different approchaes are what shadows are for.
I always try to walk the thin line, skate on a butter knife and seek the most greedy approach... so I'm used to blow-outs but, still, that one in particular did hurt. I was already seeing myself Libbing Biology and conquering the continent with Sushi Corp culture... (Or macemen, or cavs, or whatever.)
@ Nate :
Pyramids date are wildly random. Goes from Ragnar completes the Pyramids in 2200 BC to Hammurabi in 450 BC.
A key aspect, I suppose, is that AIs can only build 1 ancient wonder at a time (I think ? something like that. Search forum may help). Or they can only build 1 wonder per 3 cities they have (don't remember). 1600 BC Mids are early Mids. 1000 BC, I suppose, one would say are average Mids.
t58 update, @sampsa :
I challenge you, one deity player to another, and only best strategy will prevail! By that I mean, I'll be playing through a game in which I don't settle the gold, and go for pyramids. I'm of the opinion that a gold mine, especially with this much food, is still something that confers an advantage far outweighing the -2f deficit. Let's see once and for all which of us can kill everyone else and bring the planet under heel the fastest - I myself shall be playing under the namesake of:
"Tell them, Belisarius. Whoever comes, I'll kill them. I'll kill them all."
It's t58 and I have all of hunting, AH, fishing, pottery, and of course mining/agriculture/BW. Also picked up masonry along the way to maximum greed for mids. Police state elephants will make short work of Sitting Troll. The first and largest impact of mining instead of settling on the gold is letting you ignore cottages for longer than usual (I just picked up pottery), which in turn lets you get both masonry and the AH path instead of just one. This in turn enables you to try for the pyramids in a situation you otherwise may not have. Even if that were the only difference settling off the gold makes, having pyramids as compared to not having them confers a huge advantage that arguably snowballs much more than just a somewhat better city center tile.
Let's see how this game pans out in parallel with yours.
Btw...Wang has alphabet already by 1800BC...that's a bit unusually fast.
@ Fishes : if you're trying to prove for the best approach, then surely you should try to Oracle Code of Laws before completing the Pyramids.
Resting easy, contemplating success with only building the 500 wonder is awfuly, unacceptably, relentlessly presumptuous on your part ! We will not abide ! We know from a sure source, our informants tell us you do not even intend (!) to found the Sushi Corp in the BCs (!). Treachery ! We call to treachery !
Help us, brave men of Walapanza ! Defeat the unholy, fight to the death ! Only in Oracling Code of Laws will we meet our Zaviour !
t123 update @sampsa
After a long and bloody war, Sitting Bull has been brought under heel. He actually declared war on me first (I think started plotting from a refused demand), so it was actually pretty convenient of him to suicide his entire stack into Thessalonica and killing a grand total of ONE elephant, letting me basically thin his defenses by a dozen or so chariots, dog soldiers, and swordsmen right off the bat. The bloodbath afterwards...is best depicted as follows:
4 vs 10 cities, you would think is a losing ratio, but several factors helped me win without too much trouble:
1. Elephants were just too strong...they could flat out win against SB superarchers in walled cities without even bombarding defenses (and of course got better odds once I did).
2. I had very strong food and production for 4 cities; all but 1 had 2 food sources and high hammer tiles to finish builds from overflow.
3. POLICE STATE: +25% production towards military was huge in the early game, which meant I could 2-pop whip almost 2 catapults and 1.5 elephants every 3 turns or so. Even the city with no food could work a stone and 2 mines and build a catapult every 3 turns.
Economy is a bit dicey but I manage to beat both calendar and currency out of SB. Wang Kon is somewhat worryingly ahead but with only 7 cities, he's a long way from any tech that'd make him untouchable or the production to outspam me.
My next plan is to do something that I don't think I've seen before: trrebs + cataphracts. Normally you wouldn't pair siege with mounted but...only cataphracts is not going to end well against castles, pikes, and Chicken Pizza. So my rationale is that if I only use siege to take down defenses and then attack with just the cataphracts, I can get best of both worlds out of both a cuir AND a treb rush. My mounted units will actually stand a chance, and in this case, get winning odds against virtually all units at 0% defensive bonus, being as strong as cuirs in that case. And I won't have to wait to heal because none of my siege will be injured, as very few will attack. I think this will be much faster than a normal treb rush, and though not as fast as cuirs, and will see less casualties as well as starting much sooner (I can probably get CS and guilds and direct Sitting Bull to engineering and then just stop teching for the rest of the game, really).
Man it's another fish in the control group. Quite a challenging one as well.
My game is botched around T250 and I don't want to resign...
Is it ok if I start again from my T100 save ? Because my inability at war does not really help prove the premise :
Cottages are a luxury on a pangea
@Fish Man if you read my earlier posts more carefully, what I said was
Thus I had only a small preference for SOG™.
You are cheating by quite a bit, since you are playing with map knowledge. That doesn't mean that I'm not interested in your game of course.
I think Mids is awesome here (maybe I should've also gone for it?) as is CoL. Perhaps I am forcing my hand too much by going for swift cats, but need to play it out to see how it goes. Maybe SB builds Mids for me?
t160 update (1000AD) @sampsa
Justinian Wick brutally eliminates another rival, with a brief but intense confrontation.
As expected, my master plan went without a hitch. I built up about 20 trebs solely to bombard, and attached siegeless with cataphracts once the walls are down, losing only 5 or so units the entire war. Instrumental to this war effort was spi + mids: I first switched to buro after CS, then organized religion to quickly build forges and barracks/stables, and finally police state + vassalage + theocracy for spamming units and maximizing experience, being able to get 3 promotions out the gate for cataphracts in my HE city and one other city.
The tech leader Wang has been brought under heel in under 10 turns. Now it's just a matter of spamming enough mounted to roll over everyone else. I know some people are already getting things like MT, milsci, and maybe even steel. But cannons, cuirs, grenadiers...none of that really makes a difference once I get enough 12-strength units to smash into the remaining AIs. As long as nobody gets rifling, I won't need to spend another single beaker teching to finish off the conquest.
I enjoyed the repartee and the pics, thanks all.
Trying to continue my game in the upcoming week. Need to defend the honor of SOG™.
@Fish Man very nice playing.
I need to take back my T50 save and emulate your style of playing (more units)
Could you show Demographics @T160 so we can appreciate the relative power of your 50 units stack ?
@soundjata I think you should skip currency and build less libraries. Pretty sure the issue is not your warring skills (it's not exactly rocket science) but attacking too late.
t184 conquest win, more details may be coming in about half a day or so.
I think I just found the new and optimal way to use Justinian's UU...provided nobody get rifling, you could roll over most pangaea maps without having to tech beyond the medieval era (though upgrading to cuirs eventually certainly speeds things up). The general gist of it was that trebs + cataphracts are devastatingly effective if you stop to bombard but refrain from attacking directly with the trebs (accuracy promotion is a must here), because without walls, cataphracts are as strong as cuirs, being able to hold their own against most Renaissance units and even cannons. So if you build an initial force of trebs, don't use them up, and then spam cataphracts as you would cuirs afterwards, you can overwhelm anybody with a mounted-esque rush given enough time, even if they have pikes and castles. The only difference is you move half as fast, but even so, you don't have to worry about stack defenders or running out of siege or slow reinforcements or stopping to heal, as you would a normal engineering rus.
After Wang, there was no real resistance. Hammy was a joke. Hatty had cannons, big deal...must've been humiliating to have industrial units be wiped by medieval mounted two eras behind . Washington impressively killed 5-6 of my veteran cataphracts with a bunch of grenadiers/cuirs of his own, but folded when I massacred his entire stack in a city in turn (if you absolutely have to, trebs are OK to use against Renaissance units too, since weakening 12 strength units even a little gives your 12-strength combat 3 units much better combat odds). Then, to top things off, I upgraded all my cataphracts to cuirs and rolled over Brennus the traditional method, to finish things nice and neatly. If I did the math right, this was 5 caps in under 25 turns, and with 1-move units too. True to the legend of the babayaga, Justinian Wick has singlehandedly exacted his terrible vengeance with overwhelming and ruthless force (shouldn't have made that demand, Sitting Bull...).
@soundjata - If you want to see massive stacks and power graphs portraying massacres of hundreds of thousands of soldiers, well, I'm happy to oblige:
My attack force had almost 80 units near the end - no guns, no problem.
...though guns were nice to speed things up
HE in Cahokia was crucial, giving me a mounted unit every 2-3 turns without whipping, and with 3 promos out the gate (I settled some GGs since I was getting so many).
Overall...fun game, thanks for sharing, even if we completely ignored the rules and all semblance of morality in taking over the world with our fascist theocratic feudal police state!
Oh...and I never settled the far western fish. I suppose that's the one regret I have about this playthrough...may have saved 25 turns if I had harnessed its power (nah not really, but I quite prefer to live up to my name, even if it be inconvenient).
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