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Deity science challenge standard size

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Thorak, Feb 15, 2014.

  1. Thorak

    Thorak Warlord

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    I am interested to see how quickly it is posible to finish a science game using Hall of fame rules. As it seems the quickest time in HoF is rather bad and I want to see if anyone can beat it.

    Standard HoF rules, standard sized map, any map type any civ, quickest possible science victory.

    Here is a list of attempts so far:
    Korea, pangea: turn 247 (1685 AD)
    Austria, pangea: turn 241 (1655 AD)
    Babylon, pangea: turn 247 (1685 AD)
    Arabia, continents: turn 226 (1580 AD)
    Aztec, lakes: turn 221 (1555 AD)


    Korea game was standard 4 city tradition -> Patronage (semi) -> rationalism -> order. No wars at all.
     
  2. Thorak

    Thorak Warlord

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    Second try Austria pangea, tradition -> patronage (partly) -> rationalism -> order
    Totally peaceful game no war at all finishing with 6 cities, 5 of them previous city states.

    Finish time 1655 AD turn 241.
     
  3. Thorak

    Thorak Warlord

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    Third try Babylon pangea going Tradition->(patronage starter)->Rationalism->Order

    Totally peaceful 5 cities in the end. This game felt really quick and a had a lot of scientists generated but in the end I don't think I grew my cities big enough as I didn't generate enough BPT. I do beleive Korea is a stronger choice than Babylon if going peaceful, but I actually think Austria might be stronger than both of them if going 100% peaceful.

    Finish time 1685 AD turn 247.
     
  4. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    I'm curious why you think Korea is stronger? Not disagreeing, necessarily, but, if the issue was population, Korea in no way helps with that. The bonus beakers from specialists are fixed, as is the bonus from creating science buildings in the capital.
     
  5. Thorak

    Thorak Warlord

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    50% extra great scientist generation sounds better than it is as it only gives 1-2 extra scientists. Korea will get a much better bang for the scientists used as I spend 8 turns after finishing researching research labs and use every specialist I can to generate extra science and produce science, then I use all my great scientists at once. Doing this as Korea will be much stronger than any other civ at the same population base.
     
  6. Memoryjar

    Memoryjar Emperor

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    Stupid question : Do you bub your scientists, 8turn after labs, the same turn or one turn after another ?
     
  7. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    I think I have to agree, at least on 1. view.

    But lets do some math to compare Korea and Bab for late game bulbs:
    cap: 2 bakker *14 slots * 250% = 84
    other cities: 30 slots * 200% = 60

    lets round to 200 (forgot factories) * 1,1 from rati = 220 bonus bakkers per turn for korea uu in endgame.

    220*8=+- 2000 additional bakkers per bulb - if u bulb for 10.000 without korea and go to 12.000 with korea - u d need 5 instead 6 scientists to reach 60.000 bakkers

    if your bulbs are higher before keroa the value diminshes.

    I d say that math doesnt favour keorea THAT much for late game bulbs.
    Depends if bab can create 1 or 2 more scientists, if its 2 korea hardly catches up.
    Espacially as with bab desert start bias there comes like alwlays a additional one from faith on top (this one korea obviously CAN have too)

    I know the math isnt 100% perfect.
    But maybe some1 can correct it.
     
  8. Thorak

    Thorak Warlord

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    Great scientists gives science from last 8 turns so you want to burn every scientist the same turn to be able to produce other stuff than science (apollo program, hubble telescop) as quickly as possible.

    I think I had 12 scientists totally, in my last babylon game. 2 of them hubble telescope, 1 from order policy and one from faith, the rest vity spawned. 4 of them planted as academy and the rest bulbed.

    The numbers will favor Korea more if you have a higher number of cities with lower pop. I gotta try a Liberty Korea game once I am done with my liberty Maya game I am running...
     
  9. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    I usually only burn 2 or so to be able to build appolo and let my cities grow a bit and then switch to all out science - waiting a bit lets one buy banks and other stuff where u can put guys in for additional science.

    What really suckz is when u burn everything u have and then miss like 2 techs which take each 10+ turns and the next scientist to spawn takes ages as hubble did increase counter. Rather bulb a bit later and make sure to get everything.
    At least thats how I do it - sure if you do the math and it tells u that u got enough bakkers and scientists to get all but 2 techs and hubble is still to come - burn ..

    some1 fancy to check the math on korea above?
     
  10. Thorak

    Thorak Warlord

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    I reloaded my Korean save at turn 247 after I won.
    I have 4 cities. 1 of them next to a mountain. This leads to:
    2 cities have a 175% science bonus and 2 having 125% (50 from unis, 50 from research labs and 25 from factories). Not sure how you ended up with 250% and 200%?

    15 specialits in cap
    11 in next city
    8 in next city
    11 in next city

    Without any guilds a city can at most contain:
    4 science, 3-4 engineers (depending on if on hill or no), and 4 merchants = 11-12 specialits. If you only run 4 cities I think you should be able to get all of these. So a total of of around 50 specialists with roughly 150% bonus = 100*2,5 = 250 science/turn. Add in rati bonus on 10% so 275 science/turn. If you add in more cities the difference will be greater, and also if you build next to mountains...
     
  11. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    my 250 and 200 are equal to your 150 and 100

    I say the bakkers get multiplicated by % you say they get the bonus added.

    But my multiplicator numbers were slightly to small, we agree on specialstist we can work as about.
     
  12. Thorak

    Thorak Warlord

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    Heh, lost Machu Pichu by 1 turn even though I burned an engineer and it only took one turn to produce it after that. Never failed to get a wonder when using an engineer before but I guess some time must be the first, so I gave up on my Maya game.

    I have my doubts about Maya being quicker than Babylon/Korea though because of the fact that the "free" great persons increases the cost of further great persons. I also have my doubts about liberty as it feels like tradition is just stronger, even if going wide. Happiness is the problem and monarchy just beats everything early on when it comes to happiness.

    I have to try a Korean galleas -> frigate push just to see how effective Korea is at archipelago compared to Polynesia at this push and Korea has a bit of an easier time using more cities compared to other civs thanks to specialist limiting grows/unhappiness but at the same time generating a decent amount of science..
     
  13. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    I'm playing devil's advocate here, but at the upper limit of a really fast science game, you're limiting total population by sending all trade routes to the capital, right? I mean, it gives diminishing returns. I don't think anyone would disagree that you get more total population by spreading those trade routes out, and more "bang for your buck" sending them to your most recently planted cities, because getting their hammers & gold up quickly is quite valuable.

    So, obviously, Monarchy (and the happiness associated with it) and the +50% from NC (assuming you put it in the capital) is the primary advantage. But, if your population is growing slower, then it diminishes the value of that +50%. So, really the advantage is that you need less total happiness. But there are additional disadvantages. #1, if your other cities are bigger, they can build things faster, so you don't end up with 3 turn public school build times in the capital and 20 turns everywhere else.

    Obviously, there's bonus growth from Tradition as well. But if you're limiting your growth by sending all trade routes to the capital, that diminishes as well. So, really, if you can find a way to solve your happiness issues, liberty has some advantages... Specifically, in the case of Korea and Babylon, their UA gives more value the more cities you have... it's not based on population.

    I'm not a huge fan of liberty for SV, but I thought I'd throw that in to the mix as food for thought. I generally struggle with happiness, except for those occasional games where all the CS quests just go your way and the mercantile civs want the iron you traded away, and your archer is right there when they need a barb camp... ie luck. When luck goes my way, with Tradition sometimes I'm sitting at +17 happiness wishing I'd sent my trade routes to my other cities. Still favoring Tradition, but in a game where you get lucky with lux trades and CS, Liberty might be better... except for that faith GE thing. There are really diminishing returns on faith GS. That last faith GS buys like 3 faith GE, which can finish hubble + 2 parts, or big ben to buy labs cheaper, etc. etc., Notre Dame to fix happiness... if you know you have huge faith and are going to have extra that doesn't equate to another GS, this can really come in handy. But, the per-city science bonuses of Korea and Babylon make me wonder if maybe 6-city liberty has an advantage... less turns to achieve the same population levels, more bonus beakers per population.

    Thoughts?
     
  14. Cromagnus

    Cromagnus Deity

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    I generally feel the same way about the Maya, but ask yourself this: If (by increasing the counter) you get a GS quicker, isn't that just a good thing, even if bumps the point cost?

    For example, let's say your 10 turns away from a GS, and you bulb a GS. Now you're perhaps 30 turns away from that GS. But if you'd gotten the GS, the counter would reset, so you'd be maybe 50 turns away in that city. So, it's kind of like you had an extra city, and that extra city spawned a GS and that boosted the counter. This is all good right? I mean, not as cool as a free GS that doesn't bump the counter, but still. The free GE and GM are the tricky ones IMHO. You can use the GE to rush Pisa, and that evens out from the +25%. You can use Pisa to get a free GS, which, again bumps counters, but gets you one earlier, so that evens out.

    So the GM and GP are really the only bummers in there. The only time playing as the Maya sucks is when you're about to get a free GS right before a baktun. Especially when that GS might get you some key tech. IE a GS might be nice to bulb Scientific Theory, and by grabbing a GM, you're having to wait 7 more turns... etc.

    The one that really gets me is Hubble. I think you almost have to delay hubble as long as possible. Not so long that you waste beakers, but hubble can cost you two GS! And then a GM at that moment would make it three. :p
     
  15. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    sending caravans to the cap is a no brainer due to all the Tradition policies and NC on top of that.
    Even when more food is needed at higher pops the 10% from Tradition makes up for that. Also happynes is allways an issue. Also I ll really try to make kings day going in cap more as in other cities.

    Saying that I might have 1 early Caravan to a noncap city with low food but high production potential, make it grow quickly and have a 2nd powerhouse. - can then later shift the caravan.
     
  16. Thorak

    Thorak Warlord

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    Thing about tradition vs liberty is that I feel like that even if I am going 6 cities, I am just better of going tradition. I can safely get a NC at 2-3 cities and after that one is built I can go plant my other cities. This will also have the monarchy happiness kick it.

    I usually send a caravan to my sattelites if they are low on food tiles and have some hills/other production spots handy. Otherwise I usually send it to the cap. There are exceptions (like my cap is an inland city and my other cities have water routes).

    After getting order this changes though as happiness is a lot easier to come by which means I can send routes to other cities than my cap. And my cap is also usually rather big at this point.

    I don't think archipelago galleas rush will work as anything but Polynesia as it is simply to dependent on map layout and too slow.

    I am getting tired of these peaceful science wins though, but I think pangea Babylon/Korea/Austria are the fastest wins, but I gotta see if I can manage to get a quick win using conquest.

    I am thinking Huns on continents, trying to capture all cities on starting continent as quickly as possible and then focus on tech after that and make peaceful contact with the other continent.

    Problem with Maya is that even though it is really very easy to play and very allround it simply doesn't have the edge science bonuses of Korea and Babylon, and it doesn't have the possibility to peacefully expand to 8 cities or so like Austria has. I feel that if I wanted to go wide peacefully, I would much rather go tradition Austria to 4 cities, then once ideology hits buy out 4 city states or so. Hmm, that actually sounds very interesting, I got to give that one a try! ;)
     
  17. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    OBVIOUSLY filling Tradtion tree is allways the optimal strategy for a non domination game (and even there usually)
    Its just a matter of cirdumstances if going for the free settler aswell is worth it.

    Right side of Liberty are just pretty bad policies, u really want think about them only if your poland and have some "spare" policies.
     
  18. Thorak

    Thorak Warlord

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    Sadly I have to agree that tradition simply seems stronger. The right side of liberty is not that bad, it's just that the way happiness/nc limits early expansion tradition simply is stronger and quicker.

    I've been trying to make liberty work in different ways but every time it simply feels like I would have been in a better spot going tradition.
     
  19. Thorak

    Thorak Warlord

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    Just finished a game as Arabia, continents.

    Tradition->patronage (semi)-> rationalism->order (as usual. This seems to be the strongest for most non-water games).

    Strategy was 3 early cities -> rush to camel archer -> conquer 3 more cities -> beeline radio to get an ideology (turn 160 or so) -> build a city and conquer one more and get 1 for free (peace deal). A total of 9 cities gave me over 2200 science/turn at turn 200 when all my research labs where done. I screwed up a bit in the end though as I had more science than production but still a good finish:
    turn 226, 1580 AD, by far my quickest so far.

    I learned 3 things which will be useful for my next try:
    1) It is still worthwhile to build/conquer cities rather late (turn 150 or so depending on when I plan the game to end. But 50 turns or so is prolly enough to get a city going) if I have the gold to rush buy enough buildings/caravan to make it grow quickly/produce quickly.
    2) It is not possible to rush Apollo program with a great engineer. I really need to burn a few scientists earlier to be able to get this a bit quicker if generating this much science.
    3) It is possible to use airports to transport spaceship parts to capital. This will be VERY useful on ocean maps, but also if, like this game, I have a Petra city which is very production heavy on the other side of the continent without road access to my cap.
     
  20. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    ya thats the way i allways suggest to be best.

    but can be done with other civs as arab too, epsacially with some mCS allies army rises from self enough
     

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