Deity Shadow Game

[Simple Machine]

I would like to start a Deity shadow game, partly for fun and partly to improve my own game. Generally, I can reliably win on Immortal. On a really good day, I can win on Deity, but I would like to be more consistent in that .

Basically what I have in mind is to post a start here, then make 1-2 posts per week with some updated plays and my thought process, while any feedback, suggestions or ideas are welcome! Or, if you just want to play along and compare your progress to mine, that's fine too.

The map settings I have selected are a random standard size fractal map, with a randomly selected leader, no huts and no random events. And we get ... Washington!

I quite like him as a leader. Expansive is one of my favorite traits for the early game, as you really notice the faster workers and granaries. This has nice synergy with Charismatic, giving you the increased happy cap to grow your cities bigger. The faster promotions are a nice perk on top of that. The added health bonus makes for slightly more flexible city planning as fresh water isn't so important, and you maybe also can afford to trade away more health resources for money that you otherwise wouldn't be able to.

Then America starts with Fishing and Agriculture, which sets you up quickly to get any food resource that you start with. Although I probably would prefer Wheel or Mining over Fishing.

The unique building is a Mall, a Supermarket that gives an extra 20% gold and happiness from movies, singles and musicals. Unique unit is the Navy Seal, a Marine with a free March promotion and 1-2 first strikes. These aren't bad, but they usually come too late to have any real impact on the game.

And the start:

(A note from the demographics screen, there is no Mansa in this game. Also, there are 890 land tiles, which is fairly typical.)

I'll end the first post here, and post again soon with some of my thoughts on where to settle. Won't make any further steps until I've decided on that.

 

[soundjata]

Excellent initiative

Welcome to the land of micro and macro optimization

Optimizing is not a problem when you have enough computing power (brains)
The only issue is to be able to formulate a clear set of goals and assign them priorities

 

[Simple Machine]

My initial thought is to settle 1 NE, on that riverside grassland forest. That keeps a lot of flood plains in the capital, the unhealthiness from which is offset by our trait. Also, gazing at the fog, it looks like the tile 2S1W of the warrior is coast, and so it may be nice to move inland a bit to block off more land. Then, it looks like city #2 could go downriver from the capital for instant connection.

Only question mark is where my food is. I can't tell if that tile 2S1E of the settler is forest or not, so I think I will move the warrior 1SE to check that. If my food isn't there, then it will have to be somewhere just to the east of the settler, and I'll keep it by settling 1NE. Otherwise, if I'm missing something like wet corn at 2S1E of settler, then maybe settle 1SE, although I may risk ruining seafood.

 

[sampsa]

For me, SE looks a lot better than NE. Claims way more river.

 

[soundjata]

Agreed with warrior SE to check food.
Settler 1E and decide where to settle.

I like settling 1E to avoid loosing a turn and to keep the 2 un-forested tiles in the BFC.
But the food location (and type) might change my mind.

 

[Simple Machine]

Moved warrior 1SE:

As suspected, we indeed have ocean to the south. I do see that going 1SE would make for an objectively better capital with more river tiles, but don't you worry about losing seafood? Also, supposing we are cramped for space, I like knowing that I can guarantee back-fill 1-2+ city sites behind my capital which will also probably be safe from barbs. Maybe I overvalue this second point.

What do you think? Left to my own devices I would still go 1NE here (moving settler 1E first to gain more knowledge).

 

[sampsa]

Yes, I would worry about seafood! So it's settler 1E and decide. Settle either 1E or probably 1NE.

 

[Fippy]

2e1n looks good without knowing more, but ofc that could be your tile.

 

[Tecumseh1]

I think 1E is okay. Most important strategy is pray that floodplains is not your only food.

 

[Simple Machine]

Moving the settler 1E reveals:

Spoiler settler move :

More coast to the east. More in a corner than I thought I would be.

I was quite torn here, as no matter what it looks like there is a risk of ruining seafood - either to the east or to the south. In the end, my liking for securing an easy 2nd city downriver won out, along with my aversion to settling on flood plains, and I further moved settler 1N:

I thought this splits the difference the best - still a strong capital with 4 flood plains, wet rice, a spice, a riverside grassland, probably at least 3 additional grassland tiles, and 8+ forests to chop. I can easily share the flood plains to the south and west to grow cottages later.

Next turn I decided to go 1SW with warrior to check the coast and start scouting out of my corner. Then settled 1W of the rice...

Well ... was not quite expecting that. Ok...

Played to turn 6 to get a border pop, and chose Mining. I think you have to start with Mining-BW here, no?

Border pop, and met Asoka T6:

Nice neighbor to have. No ruined seafood after all . And it turns out the capital by itself fogbusts my entire little corner, so barbs shouldn't be as much of an issue (knock on wood).

With the stone and plenty of food, Pyramids look attractive, although I'm not sure if my capital has enough production to do it with only one mine.

Instead, I'm more tempted to say screw the pyramids, go double worker first, then chop out a settler - is that crazy?. I think like this it'd be possible to have two workers, a settler and even an extra warrior out by T36, burning 4/8 capital forests in the process. By that point wheel would be in, and pottery very cheap. Barb defense will be a little light, but I'm banking on two warriors being able to hold out west to T40+, by which point I'll have the production to get more warriors out if needed (or if lucky, axes).

 

[Thrasybulos]

My instinct (most likely awfully wrong) would have been to settle on the Rice: it maximizes the cottage potential of the Capital, and with a 3F center tile + 4 FPs + Clams, we already have an excess of food anyway.
I'd be a bit torn in the South: a city on the PH would have its strong tiles available right away... but a city on the southern Spice woud be a better helper city, and a stronger city after a border pop (and being Charismatic, monuments have a role beyond an ineffective border pop).
The Stone is awkward: settling on the Stone makes all food out-of-range.
I'd probably settle on the hill between Stone and Pig? And 3N of the capital (3N1W would get access to the Pig, but from what we can see, Stone city would need it permanently).

 

[sampsa]

I'd be a bit torn in the South: a city on the PH would have its strong tiles available right away... but a city on the southern Spice woud be a better helper city, and a stronger city after a border pop (and being Charismatic, monuments have a role beyond an ineffective border pop).

A big lesson for you here IMO. The PH spot is better by a mile! Food on the 1st ring, kills a MUCH weaker tile, gets a better city center bonus (1 vs 1) vs. 2 on an EXP leader and slightly better tile sharing.

 

[Fippy]

Imo it's at minimum worth considering to go pottery first with such starts.
Looking at the land shape & your nice warrior position, there should be no barb troubles.
Getting up those river cottages early and in peace looks nice.

 

[soundjata]

Agreed with @Fippy

This is the kind of game you can lose easily by thinking I see stone let's go mids.

The land situation is such that:
1. Easy barb management
2. We want to rush out of the peninsula in fear of getting blocked in.

TW (road to far away city 2) > Pottery (save the commerce situation) > BW (REX) looks good.

Pyramids

 

[a pen-dragon]

settle on the Rice: it maximizes the cottage potential of the Capital

I do not think so, as by moving east you only get water tiles and loose 2 (3, minus one gained by moving on the rice) grasslands and two plains that can be cottaged, even if they are not on a river. It does not even add food, as it loses the +2 (soon) from a farmed rice, but only gains +1 (not so soon) from a lighthouse for the clams.

and with a 3F center tile + 4 FPs + Clams, we already have an excess of food anyway.

Adding all up, yes that is a nice surplus, but you will start at 1 pop with only +4 (= dry rice) instead of soon being at +5 from the farmed rice. There will always be a difference of 1 food, independent of the size. That adds up to a significant amount.

Also keep in mind that we already see two happiness resources, have a nice trading partner (and probably more) and thus want to grow the capital relatively quickly.

 

[Simple Machine]

Imo it's at minimum worth considering to go pottery first with such starts.
Looking at the land shape & your nice warrior position, there should be no barb troubles.
Getting up those river cottages early and in peace looks nice.

Yeah this is a decision I am never sure how to make -- if I wasn't going to go Mining-BW my alternative would definitely be Wheel-Pottery, but going pottery first comes at a significant production cost, which delays future cities (and a workboat for the crabs?) and also an extra warrior or two for scouting. E.g., before I settle on the PH by the crab, I want a warrior to just go onto the southermost spices to make sure there's no fish down there; then he can circle out to the west to add extra support for fogbusting and exploration. Maybe I also chop a 2nd workboat out of the crabs city to go scout the northern coast and explore.

Agreed with @Fippy

This is the kind of game you can lose easily by thinking I see stone let's go mids.

The land situation is such that:
1. Easy barb management
2. We want to rush out of the peninsula in fear of getting blocked in.

TW (road to far away city 2) > Pottery (save the commerce situation) > BW (REX) looks good.

Pyramids

Agree on no pyramids. Although if the capital had more mines or even more forest for production and we were Lincoln (philosophical) or an Industrious leader, I would consider it more.

Instead I like quick expansion, going at least as far as the ivory, then go for CoL (++chichen itza failgold)-->Math-->Civil Service, hopefully trade for monarchy not too late. Settle around the capital to grow bureaucracy cottages.

 

[Fippy]

If you are nope on Pyras, pottery first becomes even better.
It's deity..if you rapid expand, tech mining - BW, farm a floodplain that would certainly want to be cottaged later, have no road towards your 2nd city, you are severly crippling your early teching.

Blocking land isn't needed with Jumbos, cos you are likely breaking out with Elepult.
With several floodplain cottages worked early, you get everything else quicker (including your war stuff).

 

[Simple Machine]

If you are nope on Pyras, pottery first becomes even better.
It's deity..if you rapid expand, tech mining - BW, farm a floodplain that would certainly want to be cottaged later, have no road towards your 2nd city, you are severly crippling your early teching.

Blocking land isn't needed with Jumbos, cos you are likely breaking out with Elepult.
With several floodplain cottages worked early, you get everything else quicker (including your war stuff).

However, what do you think about the value of getting city #2 out and a 2nd worker very quickly? If I go worker/worker/settler and tech Mining-BW-Wheel, then I can time it so that I build the one road needed to connect the PH crab city before settling it. That 2nd city will instantly net 2 commerce/turn (+2 from trade route, +1 city center, +1 worked FP - 2 expenses), can immediately chop a workboat to get an extra commerce from the crabs, and in <8 turns can grow to size 2, adding another commerce. The first cottage will be delayed, but the growth potential of 2 cities with 2 workers before T40 seems really good. Added bonus that I can quickly insert a warrior chop for an extra scout/fog buster for safety. Admittedly, a few (I think 4) worker turns are wasted farming a flood plain, but that doesn't seem so bad.

Conversely, wheel-pottery first delays 2nd worker and 2nd city, at the benefit of getting 1-2 FP cottages worked really early.

My priority is definitely to get cottages quickly, but my feeling is that first inserting mining-BW accelerates things even more with this kind of start. Founding that 2nd city actually would bring in more commerce than one cottage. What do you think about this reasoning?

++I do like elephants .

 

[Simple Machine]

I decided to play both ways and compare:
Option 1: Tech mining-BW, capital builds worker/worker/warrior/settler, with the warrior being done on a chop, then both workers chopping out the settler. Settle on PH crab (make sure has road connection first). Then tech wheel-pottery, develop cottages & go from there.

Option 2: Tech wheel-pottery, capital builds worker, then grows to work cottages, eventually getting a settler. Tech mining-BW next, settle on PH crab, go from there.

Spoiler TLDR, which is better? :

@Fippy I am definitely convinced! Starting with wheel-pottery is much better than starting Mining-BW and going worker/worker/settler in capital. I have to say this was a little counterintuitive to me, as I figured that getting 2 workers and a second city out ASAP would maximize early growth potential, but I think I failed to take into account how powerful those FP tiles are (especially once cottaged), and starting with chops to get worker/worker/settler carries a clear opportunity cost of not working those tiles sooner. The seemingly lower early production (from delayed chopping) is easily made up for by the ability to whip another worker from the capital once it grows on the flood plains.

Spoiler Option 1 :

T9 mining
T16 worker #1 out -> farm rice
T20 rice farm done
Had 3 worker turns to waste and figured I would never want a farm on the FP, so decided to scout my little SE corner with the worker until BW was done, to check for seafood that the PH crab city might ruin (none there)
T25 BW (no copper), worker #1 is waiting on forest and starts chopping
T28 worker #2 out, flick in a quick warrior with chop overflow for extra security to the west in case of bad RNG
T29 warrior out and goes west, both workers now chopping settler
T34 wheel
T36 settler is out, switch to slavery

Took a small risk with the 2nd warrior to scout.

Interesting landmass. Asoka had not been putting all his espionage points on me, so there is at least one other civ nearby.

T38 settled city #2 on PH crab and also got another warrior out of capital -- maybe overly conservative, but I wanted to make sure I am OK on barb front NW of the ivory.

I discover Asoka is pretty close (this warrior then goes back towards the mountains to fogbust). Since I was worried he would steal my ivory, I decided to prioritize settling that stone/ivory/FP city. Not right away, but I start putting chop overflow into settler from the capital while growing. Third warrior is heading in that direction, NW of the ivory.

T43 pottery, then plan for Hunting-AH-Writing
T48 hunting

This is T50 under option 1 (Mining-BW-Wheel-Pottery with worker/worker/settler start):

We have teched Mining-BW-Wheel-Pottery-Hunting, and have:
- 2 cities
- 2 workers
- 3 warriors
- 1 granary
- 38 hammers into a settler in capital, to be finished with chops at size 4
- 3 cottages
- 17 beakers/turn at breakeven

Spoiler Option 2 :

T11 wheel
T16 worker #1 out, capital then grows to size 5 on a warrior then part of a granary
T20 pottery

Spoiler meet additional civ :

met Tokugawa T21 as one of his scouts reached my peninsula.

Spoiler meet yet another civ :

Met Khmer T24

T27 mining
T31 warrior out
T34 capital has grown to size 5, then builds settler
T37 BW, worker is already in forest and starts to chop settler
T40 Hunting
T42 settler out, switch to slavery. I forgoed building road to connect city #2 in favor of chopping the PH forest for extra 10 hammers to capital. Put the chop into a worker, then 2-pop whip him at size 6, for overflow into granary:

T44 settle city #2 (not connected), and worker #1 chops a workboat for it.
T47 2-pop whip worker #2 in capital, overflow finishes granary
T48 animal husbandry

And here's T50:

We have teched: Wheel-pottery-Mining-BW-Hunting-AH-halfway done with writing
- 2 cities
- 2 workers
- 2 warriors
- 1 granary (in capital)
- 24 hammers into settler in capital
- an extra 4 forests remaining in capital compared to Option 1 (!)
- 3 hamlets
- 20 beakers/turn at breakeven

TLDR option 2 is clearly much better

 

[Fippy]

Great comparison, very interesting to read
FP cottages & EXP granaries are so good in peaceful early games (low barb pressure), they can even compete with the very common BW first play.
Fishing & Agri also give the 40% pottery discount.