Why is it unfortunate? Are you talking about empires overexpanding and then falling apart? I think it would not be fun at all. Isn't being conquered militarily or getting problems with unhappiness and rebellions when you start falling behind in other areas enough?One thing Civ has never been able to do is model the collapse of empires, which is unfortunate. However, honestly Civ is explicitly intended to feel like a board game rather than an effective sandboxing of human history over time. Off topic, but I think everyone here is trying to make Civ something it neither tries or even can be. Maybe one day a different 4X game will come along that finally accomplishes what we all truly want, but considering how monolithic the genre is, I doubt it.
Yeah, it may be unfun. I would see it as a mod mod with events that do that. Similar to endgame crisis in Stellaris.Why is it unfortunate? Are you talking about empires overexpanding and then falling apart? I think it would not be fun at all. Isn't being conquered militarily or getting problems with unhappiness and rebellions when you start falling behind in other areas enough?
Is there a reason why you guys are all playing America? Is it just to have the same base line?
I'd certainly start by playing a really powerful civ and seeing if they can handle a peaceful game, and American doesn't seem very powerful to me.
Tradition no longer loses population for building a settler
I think the USA is a top choice for a 100% peaceful game. If you let yourself play like a 95% peaceful game a lot of different civs could work, but it's the inability to respond to being forward settled through violence. It makes certain things a lot more important, and I think the USA is pretty uniquely positioned to handle that specific challenge.
My second choices would be India or Arabia
Well it’s a nice sentiment, nothing mentioned here comes close To the massive benefit Of an extra 25% Or more CS that you would gain if you cut anti war mongers penalties In halfIt would be a good change but only if we provide a check to exploiting it as it surely need to be on the opener, which may be chosen by anyone who is otherwise going progress, and also because tradition already possesses the fastest city settling potential of any policies as was mentioned in many threads recently.
I suggest a simple flat increase of 3/4 percentage points to increased technology and policies costs, for a total of +10/11% per city, so it would tradition to stay tall and benefit doing so.
On other things I share @Jednooki_John feelings and I have some suggestions to decrease direct tediousness of the war, while increasing difficulty at the same time, shortly. The most obvious would be to half possible anti-warmonger fervor, as it is unfun and unrealistic. If you are warmonger with established military tradition and experienced troops it does not makes any sense for some newly raised troops to be as battle-hardened as your veterans. So it would cap at 32.5 % or some similar value.
In the place of this we have quite a lot of sensible mechanism already posted by @Rhys DeAnno and @looorg: increased yield penalties for captured cities (through courthouse, but like I said, I wish we would redevelop courthouses into peaceful all-cities buidlings), eliminating hill on kill, large bonuses to trade routes when at peace, instant severing of trade deals (thus cutting off many luxuries) when razing/capturing too much cities which would hopefully translate to massive happiness problems, while also help with bringing down AI who swallowed half of the world. War would be much more enjoyable without artificial penalties, while empire managing much harder and more realistic to compensate.
I am also in favor of experience reduction to ranged units a bit. I don't agree with @ElliotS that it would be unfun. We had this problem in Civ5 since vanilla, with ranged units being much more exploitable than melee ones in the hands of human players. That would cut the Lernaean Hydra once and for all.
I completely don't agree with something people mentioned here e.g. if war is too easy, disable vassalage. It would only add to tediousness of the game, not meaningful threats or any challenge to the player. Vassalage is in good place, the loyalty of your vassals just need to be questioned a lot more, that's all.
Really, though, 100% peace shouldn't be something we should be balancing for (not that that's what your saying, just wanted to point it out). 100% peace is more like an artificial restriction one imposes on themself for an interesting challenge. It's something I purposely do when playing India as like a roleplaying thing, or maybe as Korea and pretending to be a hermit nation. I really don't think making that mode of play balanced should be a goal- it's just ignoring an important aspect of the game.
Is there a reason why you guys are all playing America? Is it just to have the same base line?
Frankly, the reason you can't succeed at Deity peacefully is because you aren't very good at playing peacefully, as shown by various posts within this thread.because tradition already possesses the fastest city settling potential of any policies as was mentioned in many threads recently
I also tried America for a totally peaceful game a while back:I think they are just following my example and for me it was just the random civ of the game I started to see if I could do all peace, or minimal war or whatever we should call it. This time i razed two Otto foward-settles, they tried sailing around to my rear and encircle me?! That just had to go really.
I think the USA is a top choice for a 100% peaceful game. If you let yourself play like a 95% peaceful game a lot of different civs could work, but it's the inability to respond to being forward settled through violence. It makes certain things a lot more important, and I think the USA is pretty uniquely positioned to handle that specific challenge.
My second choices would be India or Arabia
My test for whether deity is in the right place, since deity is supposed to be the most extreme challenge, is whether a mostly peaceful playthrough is possible under optimal circumstances. It seems that America can get early game wonders. I still haven't managed it with anyone else, but came close with India. Arabia probably can come close too.
It seems like some of the key pacing elements for deity should include the average turn that certain wonders are gone to the AI by. Tradition with and without Hanging Gardens is night and day. I think the C bonuses right now are in a really strong place and could allow for the slowing down of some of the early bonuses so that civs outside of America, India, and Arabia have a shot.
Lol, I guess for some of you continuing ad personam accusation against me is just just far more interesting than debating the points I and other posters made. Have you ever read what I wrote? I specifically brought up example of progress or authority taking no food penalty tradition opener ("which may be chosen by anyone who is otherwise going progress") so your whole second paragraph is just rant resulting from not reading my post. I made absolutely zero references about how I play tradition, though I hinted that the goal of tradition is to stay tall. Because you don't like to read my posts its here: "so it would [force] tradition to stay tall and benefit [for] doing so"Frankly, the reason you can't succeed at Deity peacefully is because you aren't very good at playing peacefully, as shown by various posts within this thread.
If you think tradition is good for spamming cities, then I'm not surprised you can't win with it on Deity. Yes, you could can build like 3 settlers in a row. It's a great way to completely destroy your culture and science. This change to settlers has been really crippling to tradition because the population loss hurts them far more than any other tree. This myth around the forum that tradition somehow benefits is false, early game culture is very important, taking tradition and leaving your capital at only 3 or 4 population means you get 1 or 2 culture from social policies. You are going to shoot up your social policy cost, while having terrible culture output. You don't have the population to even use your specialists (you need to use that artist slot). You are making bad decisions and arguing that things need to be made easier until you can win without having to reconsider those decisions.
Taking 1 tradition just to settle faster and then taking progress isn't a good strategy either. That proposal to increase teh cost per city would nerf tradition into complete uselessness outside of playing with just one city. You want to delay every single social policy for the rest of the game to save 43 food per settler? It's not worth a social policy, it's not worth the delay to progress's key policies like the 3 science, the 10 culture per building, finishing the tree, or starting your second tree. Progress can just bounce cities between 3 and 4 population to spam settlers.
How about this thread? In your own words "By no means I am saying that I have played good." When I lose on Deity, I try to get to better. You lose and you demand balance changes, never mind if you made bad decisions. It's the highest difficulty, its supposed to be hard.I made absolutely zero references about how I play tradition, though I hinted that the goal of tradition is to stay tall. Because you don't like to read my posts its here: "so it would [force] tradition to stay tall and benefit [for] doing so"
I called it great because Stalker put a lot of work into it. I don't agree with everything he said, in fact I pointed out several flaws in his approach. But even then, Stalker makes 8 points from his experience, only two of which favor tradition. In his evidence, progress was in a much better position after turn 100, in addition to getting it's religion earlier.And here is entire topic spurred by those discussions comparing early settling potential of tradition and progress. Guess who was the clean winner? Tradition. And in your posts there, you called that thread "great". Now you are attacking me when I am referencing results from that thread. It is clear that you are doing it only because it is now me who states that, even if you agree with the point when it is not me bringing it.
Lol. You are taking several months old thread, which I specifically made for a photojournal. I also did things like recapturing my city and reducing it population to five or so. That's was mostly due to have an interesting photojournal. I don't argue that I am great tradition player and that I shouldn't lose on deity. I am arguing game is rigged against tradition from the start far more than against authority. But you are back for questioning my skill and ad personam remarks. Even if I don't play that well, I am not discussing it, you ignore most others posters experiences and seem to be quite content that most of people cannot have enjoyable deity game. Fine, but I am on another side of this divide.How about this thread? In your own words "By no means I am saying that I have played good." When I lose on Deity, I try to get to better. You lose and you demand balance changes, never mind if you made bad decisions. It's the highest difficulty, its supposed to be hard.
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/austria-deity-3-1.655818/
Where you picked a bad civ for the situation, picked a bad pantheon, and put your capital's settler in a bad spot? It's not evidence that Deity is too hard to be peaceful on. It is that evidence that you just don't play that well.
Because: 1. it is expolitable to humans by taking tradition opener and selecting other policies (even if it is suboptimal - this changes would affect all players at al difficulties, not only deity player like you who knows what absolutely optimal and slightly less optimal) 2. it gives a lot of potential snowball power to AI, which already has much larger capitals than you, so it would exacerbate tradition AI potential.You and several others have put forward this idea that somehow the settler change (that they now require food) favors tradition, because you can spam settlers.
And right now situation tends to be appropriate 90% of the time. Taking this to 66% would be a great improvement. Right some posters here are evaluating if only two (out of thirthy plus!) civilization have a good shot at deity tradition win. It's not good balance.The main issue is you might get forward settled, and that's what war is for. Taking authority doesn't unlock the "declare war" button, it's there for everyone, use it when the situation is appropriate.
Attacking your ideas or strategies explicitly isn't ad hominem? I'm not attacking you, I'm disagreeing with ideas you've posted. I do read other people's comments, and I give them a lot of value.Lol. You are taking several months old thread, which I specifically made for a photojournal. I also did things like recapturing my city and reducing it population to five or so. That's was mostly due to have an interesting photojournal. I don't argue that I am great tradition player and that I shouldn't lose on deity. I am arguing game is rigged against tradition from the start far more than against authority. But you are back for questioning my skill and ad personam remarks. Even if I don't play that well, I am not discussing it, you ignore most others posters experiences and seem to be quite content that most of people cannot have enjoyable deity game. Fine, but I am on another side of this divide.
By the way it's obvious I've played more than a dozen tradition game since that time, and I read many posts and photojournals of better players, including you, or watched playthroughs like @Milae, which affected my skill and reevaluated many things in my eyes. What's next? Reminding me that I played emperor at the beginning and not deity from the start, so shouldn't be posting in this thread?
I want to be clear about your opinion here. You think that potentially getting to build settlers without a food loss is so strong that you would take a social policy that increases the cost of all future social policies and techs by as much as 12% (if you had 4 non-capital cities) to do it?Because: 1. it is expolitable to humans by taking tradition opener and selecting other policies (even if it is suboptimal - this changes would affect all players at al difficulties, not only deity player like you who knows what absolutely optimal and slightly less optimal) 2. it gives a lot of potential snowball power to AI, which already has much larger capitals than you, so it would exacerbate tradition AI potential.
Do you consider a game where I get forward settled and war that guy, take 1 city, and only fight defensively the rest of the game a game that I was a warmonger?And right now situation tends to be appropriate 90% of the time. Taking this to 66% would be a great improvement. Right some posters here are evaluating if only two (out of thirthy plus!) civilization have a good shot at deity tradition win. It's not good balance.
Lol. You are taking several months old thread, which I specifically made for a photojournal. I also did things like recapturing my city and reducing it population to five or so. That's was mostly due to have an interesting photojournal. I don't argue that I am great tradition player and that I shouldn't lose on deity. I am arguing game is rigged against tradition from the start far more than against authority. But you are back for questioning my skill and ad personam remarks. Even if I don't play that well, I am not discussing it, you ignore most others posters experiences and seem to be quite content that most of people cannot have enjoyable deity game. Fine, but I am on another side of this divide.
By the way it's obvious I've played more than a dozen tradition game since that time, and I read many posts and photojournals of better players, including you, or watched playthroughs like @Milae, which affected my skill and reevaluated many things in my eyes. What's next? Reminding me that I played emperor at the beginning and not deity from the start, so shouldn't be posting in this thread?
Because: 1. it is expolitable to humans by taking tradition opener and selecting other policies (even if it is suboptimal - this changes would affect all players at al difficulties, not only deity player like you who knows what absolutely optimal and slightly less optimal) 2. it gives a lot of potential snowball power to AI, which already has much larger capitals than you, so it would exacerbate tradition AI potential.
And right now situation tends to be appropriate 90% of the time. Taking this to 66% would be a great improvement. Right some posters here are evaluating if only two (out of thirthy plus!) civilization have a good shot at deity tradition win. It's not good balance.