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[Deity] Stairway to Heaven #4: De Gaulle of France (Fractal)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by pomthom, Jan 16, 2014.

  1. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Yes. It's possible that there is an area just as good as the fp:s to the east, just much closer and contested by Mansa. It might be even possible to block Mansa off a bit. I have no complaints about scouting the east, but some turns were wasted imo scouting the north, as it is very unlikely that an AI is contesting the land between our cap in the softwood forest and the north pole.

    Do we know where the bearded guy came from btw? I think it's a good habit to Alt+S the spot and turn number (if we can't see his borders yet).
     
  2. MegaLurker

    MegaLurker King

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    Wouldn't be unusual for there to be too many wandering barbs to get a settler through on Deity, with all those desert tiles un-busted.

    I keep looking to see if there's a solid explanation for what I think is increased barb unit spawn probabilities on desert/tundra/ice but I guess I'll have to look at the xml myself.
     
  3. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    The fact that player/AI/barbs are less likely to found cities to these locations, spawn-busting it? I'm sure you thought of that yourself and am curious of the results if you look into the code.
     
  4. pomthom

    pomthom Drive & Reverb

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    I think the spawn-likelihood is simply greater on desert/tundra/ice. Jungle too
     
  5. MegaLurker

    MegaLurker King

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    I think certain tiles just have a higher probability, as Pomthom said. I don't think it affects barb city spawn.
     
  6. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    I agree that The Great Wall and a city for Horse seem to be the best options at this point in the game. Connecting the cities could be difficult though.

    I suggest researching masonry and bronze working right now. Start The Great Wall when masonry is acquired. Maybe whip a settler with maximum overflow into The Great Wall (hopefully enough to complete it).

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  7. pomthom

    pomthom Drive & Reverb

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    Actually I'm seriously considering Masonry first because it will improve a bit my commerce and because otherwise it means I'll start building the GW in ~20/25 turns which is too late IMO
     
  8. MegaLurker

    MegaLurker King

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    This makes sense to me.

    Though I agree that it would be nice if you could grow on the GW to size 4, put enough turns into a settler to 2-pop whip it and then have that overflow finish the GW. Maybe not worth risking, though.
     
  9. chessplaya

    chessplaya Prince

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    My shadow, 1400 BC:
    Spoiler :
    I had to try building the Oracle myself because lots of people were saying it's bad and I didn't believe them, especially when I noticed that Oracle is a 5-turn build at size 4 without any overflow just by using cows+marble+forested plains hill. It worked pretty well--I finished Oracle in 1920 BC and took Monarchy:
    Spoiler :
    With all the neighbors I have and a bit of fogbusting the barb invasion was not a big deal--it only consisted of 1 barb archer! Unfortunately that archer had a combat promo so I didn't dare attack it, and it decided to pillage my plains cow and the road underneath it before suiciding against my cap. I actually deleted 2 warriors because they would have cost me maintenance, which would have meant significantly slower Oracle techs and mining->BW afterward. I just settled my third city next to horses, and I revolted to HR+Slavery a couple turns ago.

    So far my tech path has been AH->Myst->Masonry->Med->PH->Mining->BW->Pottery. Mansa just finished Alpha and is willing to sell Writing for Med+PH+Pottery, but I'm getting significant boosts from 3 pre-reqs and 3 AIs that already know writing and he is the worst enemy of 3 other civs, so I don't think that is a good trade. Here's what the known world looks like:
    Spoiler :
    I'm not sure where to settle next. I'd love to claim ivory but all the city spots near there look terrible. Hopefully I can trade for IW soon because the location of iron might really help my settling decision. Joao has been in war mode for the past few turns, but he's probably targeting his worst enemy Mansa and not me.
     
  10. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    @chessplaya

    Spoiler :

    The concern with the Oracle mostly boils down to that, even with 1920 completion date, you are 400+ years past the date where deity barbs can invade and nowhere close to anything better than warriors to defend. Sometimes you get away with that and sometimes you lose the game before it ever gets started. I'm not saying it's wrong, but you really have to get a good feel for whether or not you will be safe (close neighbors, no large expanses of jungle, etc) before trying something like that.
     
  11. chessplaya

    chessplaya Prince

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    @Izuul:
    Spoiler :
    That makes sense. Barbs are usually worse on immortal than what I faced so far on this game on deity, and I'm sure I gave them archery in worldbuilder. I figured the only way to find out whether I would be safe is to try Oracle, and if I lose the game to barbs in the BCs then it would be a good learning experience on what not to do.
     
  12. cseanny

    cseanny Emperor

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    @ Chess and Izuul
    Spoiler :
    Double cows lets you get out extra warriors which will definitely make fogbusting easier. Oracle can go pretty fast on Deity but it's not uncommon by any means to grab it in the 1400-1300 range. 1900 is almost always extremely safe!

    I played and actually grabbed Oracle (MC) and Mids (forge into chops). TGW went in 2740 (20?) (Qin) so that Wonder is unattainable either way. On this particular map 3 Warriors out early (North, North East, and East fog bust just right (map gets crowded quick).
     
  13. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    @guys playing shadows
    Spoiler :
    I have very mixed experience with deity barbs. Sometimes there is an endless stream of them, sometimes nearby AI(s) spawnbust efficiently or barbs plant cities by turn 30 and you will see 1-2 roaming archers only. I'm curious to hear if someone more experienced with the issue can give some pointers on how to know what to expect. Obviously get some spawnbusters out quickly etc, but beyond that.

    Cseanny, Oracling MC + Mids is pretty awesome! :goodjob: Chessplaya, as you play on I'm really curious on what kind of trade value you can get out of monarchy. Weak trade value was my biggest doubt when considering the strength of oracling monarchy. Hope you guys post updates as you play on.
     
  14. dohh

    dohh Warlord

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    My shadow until 1050 AD.

    Game till far:
    Spoiler :
    Took risk, skipped mining and BW at all. Builded GW and oracle. Prebuilt settlers but waited settling them to ensure I research priesthood fast enough. Build Oracle in 5 turns:)

    Beelined elepults, started using chopping only on elephants. That was when I actually got BW from trade.

    Sucked a little bit with micro here, cities got a bit messy. But nothing tragical.

    Had long and expensive war with Mansa, which I finally won and vasallaged him for getting techs later. Got some nice wonders from him.




    Still winnable in couple of ways.
    Guys what You reckon, which one to pick?

    AP Cheese
    Spoiler :
    very likely, but I wont do it


    Cultural
    Spoiler :
    Very likely, as I have 5 religions + parthenon


    Domination/conquest
    Spoiler :
    Likely, but I need to attack next target really fast. I see Joao only option here. Means I have to whip a lot, and damage my economy.






    View attachment STH#4 Dohh AD-1050.CivBeyondSwordSave
     
  15. pomthom

    pomthom Drive & Reverb

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    As other shadowers have demonstrated, Barbs were not that much of a pain, especially with double Cows pumping out Warriors to spawn bust. Oh well going for the GW was still a neat plan but....

    --------------------------

    Played 39 turns: from 3160 BC to 1600 BC (turn 60)

    Strategy:
    (i) Tech Masonry, build the Great Wall
    (ii) Settle possibly to block-off Mansa in the West, settle aggressively to grab the good land​


    Here's how it went:

    Spoiler :

    While I wait for Masonry, I pump out Warriors like there's no tomorrow to start spawn-busting a bit more seriously.

    I try to grid out the surrounding land for Barbs:




    I meet this guy coming from the SW:








    My spawn-busting grid is now setup in all diretions but the North:




    Do I need the GW all things considered?? :hmm:


    Masonry is in, I've grown to size 4, let's get started on this darn Great Wall:




    My SW Warrior abandons his post temporarily because it will soon be time to settle and we need to reveal tiles.

    And he discovers a good blocking spot NE of the wet Corn:




    We also see Hammurabi settling in my direction:




    Barb Archers are harrassing my spawn-busters. 4 MORE TURNS, COME ON:




    But then...

    ... I'm too late...




    Shy of 2 turns... that's quite a bit actually. Had I not gone for Mining before Masonry it was mine. :mad:

    Frustrating because it was all for nothing and I could have gotten out 2/3 Settler/Workers by now... Not to mention that I still only have spawn-busting to defend myself against barbs. FCK.


    That leaves me with aggressive settling. NOW.




    After my first Settler, I'm going to build a Worker, then chop another Worker and overflow into a Settler. I'm going double Worker before 2nd Settler because my settling spots are far and I have a load of roading and chopping to do.




    After Pottery, I'm off to Writing.


    The city of Orleans is born!




    Good spot, I'm happy I grabbed that one.


    Barb-wise, I'm still a bit exposed to my SE after losing a Warrior who failed to dodge wandering Archers, but it's not too bad:




    And I get a barb city-spawn near the Horses:




    On a hill :mad:


    And we meet 2 more dudes! Are we all on the same landmass?







    It's good to have Shaka on the map and not right next to me *lol*


    1720 BC, a very early ToA by Mansa. The Oracle is still available :mischief:


    All the way to the East, my exploration reveals an awkward spot that has both very good and very crappy tiles:




    2 food specials and 4 FPs but no fresh water and only desert tiles apart from that. :think: I tried working around the spot to find something better but I didn't. It's still decent, but not exactly my future Bureau cap either. I could abandon the Fish by settling 1S and get a much better long term spot but that would leave the fish for a very very crappy spot 2E of the oasis...


    Writing is in! Time to step back.


    ----------

    So here's our situation:

    Spoiler :
    1. Expnsion
    I have a Settler heading East, should I settle the Crab/Fish spot now (or 1S of that spot for better long term) or should I claim the Horses to get something better than... Warriors?




    That means settling in the Barbs face... not a big problem.


    I think settling the Horses first is stronger.


    Overview:

    Spoiler :










    2. Tech
    I was the first to Writing so it makes sense to bee-line Alpha. On the other hand, I have Marble so going the Aesth/Lit route is also pretty juicy.

    Priesthood is also ~15 turns away...


    I'm enclined to go Aesth to mitigate the risk of several AIs going for early Alpha.

    --------------------

    Further descriptive screenshots:

    Spoiler :












    Mesdames et Messieurs, what do you think?
     

    Attached Files:

  16. MegaLurker

    MegaLurker King

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    It seems like the GW was not really necessary, I feel bad for suggesting it :blush: But one of your early screenshots showed a whole pile of barbs wandering around your capital. With that many AIs and early hammers you can get away with warriors. Looks like the originaly plan of Oracling MC was quite do-able. Oh well.

    At least scouting revealed some good land. If I were you I would settle the 2x seafood spot 1W, the green hill you have it planned for being the only non-desert hill. Kills a FP but that site already has so much food, it's your obvious GP farm.

    You got kind of lucky with that barb city, actually. It doesn't block the spot 1NW of horses but if you grab that the barb city blocks for you. Park a couple chariots nearby and hope to snipe it after an AI suicides some units.

    Room for 8 good to decent cities, should be fine. No particularly good bureau spot so I guess you might as well cottage the green tiles around the capital and have a helper city work them. Between that and all the wine it'll be decent enough commerce I guess, though you'll definitely want to have taken someone's land before the AI tech rate explodes in the early industrial era.

    There is enough food here to make the pyramids interesting.
     
  17. chessplaya

    chessplaya Prince

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    @cseanny:
    Spoiler :
    Wow, Oracle MC and Mids? Impressive! So far every wonder has gone pretty early in my game. From the log: GWall=2640BC, Henge=2600BC, ToA=2080BC, Oracle=1960BC (me :cool:), Mids=1840BC :eek:, GLH=1280BC. Obviously Oracle->MC would be a lot stronger than Oracle->Monarchy but I didn't want a high risk of teching all the Oracle pre-reqs for nothing.
    @sampsa:
    Spoiler :
    I played a few more turns, to 1080BC, and traded Masonry+PH=Writing with Pacal, Monarchy+PH=Alpha with Mansa, and Monarchy=IW+Fishing with Pacal. I think that's pretty good trade value. Maybe taking fishing was :smoke: but both Pacal and Mansa were the worst enemy of multiple civs so I wanted to make even trades to reduce the "you traded with our WE" hate (which is currently zero from everyone :D). It's also much nicer to have Monarchy in AI hands for early shared civic love than MC, especially if you aren't planning on early war.
     
  18. Timo33

    Timo33 Chieftain

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    I think it's too late for the Oracle now. :/

    I think going for Aestetics makes sense, since you're industrious and have marble. Also there's a chance you wouldn't be first to Alpha: there are good techers in the game.

    You need the horse city as soon as possible imo. Not really because of barb trouble, eventhough chariots will come in handy, but because you need to take the spot before another AI could expand towards it and box you in.

    After having grabbed the horses, you can just continue expanding and take the remaining spots; or you can chose to HA somebody... But that wouldn't be wise i think.
     
  19. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Sometimes the Oracle goes incredibly late, like 1000 to 800 BC or so, so if its really only Priesthood, I'd definately try to take the chances at it.

    I've seen you work a Plains-Hill when there would have been a Wine's-Farm available and still miss the GW by 2T :((((( .

    What I also saw from the screens, is, that you'll be able to get 5 good cities at least, so you don't have any need to rush someone, but I think you should think about a very late Horse-Archers war, like just before the AI gets Longbows or so.
     
  20. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Btw.: You're playing French, and havn't surrendered to the Barbarians yet? You aren't playing your role very well, pomthom . :(
     

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