Deity Strat: The Nationalism Slingshot

[Architect]

This strategy was successfully executed on a Diety game so I don't know if it really works or is necessary on the lower levels. I can usually easily keep pace with the Emperor AI but maybe others might find this useful.

The problem I have found on Diety is that there is no way to keep up with the AI research during the Middle Ages. Here's my current tech situation with some civs already at steam power.

Especially in the games I play with at least 7 other civs (large map, pangea 60%, arid, cold, 3 billion) they just move way to fast and it costs way to much GPT to stay even close. So, rather than try to keep up I just accept my fate an wait until the AI reach the industrial age. During the middle ages I completely focus on my economy rush building every improvement that will help me get my gold per turn up and only getting the techs that matter for this like Banking. As you can see from this attached save the year is 640AD and I am researching Chemistry. A quick look at the diplo screens and I'm clearly behind in tech and everyone but Babylon (???) in the industrial age. I have less cities and its looking pretty bleak. However, this is the Civ III AI, so never give up, never surrender.

640AD Researching Chemistry

Now, here is the same game, same YEAR, yes that's right, 640 AD and I'm at tech parity with the rest of the world (the ruskies have communism), have coal and iron which aren't in my borders, I'm bringing in 387gpt (down from 424gpt) and have built my first railroad.

640AD Researching Medicine

How in the name of Sid Meier did I do that?

The scientific trait and Nationalism tech or what I call the Nationalism Slingshot (TM).

In 1.29, the AI totally overvalue Nationalism, to the point where they won't trade it to you normally without way over paying and they don't trade it to one another. We humans don't need to care that much about it and hence our advantage.

So how did I get to nationalism in one turn? I used my built up gpt economy and traded it all to the weakest most picked on AI civ that wasn't scientific, our fan favorite: Joanie. Joanie in this game was a little warmonger and has now started to pay the price. She is being attacked by everyone but the babs and myself. She's in a heap of trouble and I'm here to help.

So here's what I did: I traded all gpt deals with Joanie for Chemistry, Metallury, Physics, Theory of Gravity, and Magnetism. That totalled about 400gpt. This influx of income hopefully will help her stay alive 20 more turns lasting long enough not to sully my rep with her dying. Voila I'm in the industrial age. As a scientific civ Nationalism is a free tech. All the non scientific civs and the babs (who are way behind for some reason in this game) don't have nationalism yet and trade it to them for big bucks and techs. Now my economy is back up, I have coal and iron, and I am at tech parity (that would be all the missing techs on the first shot + monachy and chivalry).

Funny thing is Joanie is lacking Nationalism and Steam Power which I got from one of her enemies. I am able to get 187gpt back from little Joanie by trading Nationalism and Steam power to her. So effectively I'm prolonging the world war against Joanie by pulling as much money as I can from her enemies, giving her rifleman and the draft to help defend her cities and still subsidizing her war effort with 200gpt a turn from her enemies! All this only cost me 37gpt and Nationalism.

I didn't save reload through any of this to find the exact right combination so it might be possible to milk this even more. I'm sure the more experienced Diety players around here could do this much better than I. It also might have been better to hold off on trading Nationalism to some of the civs, but getting steam power, iron and coal is so important I had to leverage it now.

Comments?

 

[KDan]

That's a masterstroke. Nicely done

Sounds like a good strategy too but a very long shot in more general situations (and of course inapplicable to non-scientific civs).

Daniel

 

[Zachriel]

Concentrating on commerce in the early game is a very good idea. You can always rush the libraries later. Nice hook with the extra tech at the end. Finally, helping your enemy's enemy is always a good idea.

 

[Tassadar]

Excellent trade, you did a major improvement to your civilisation by doing it. On higher level, mastering trade is a must. You give a very good exemple.

 

[Tassadar]

Just for curiosity, which is you plan to win the game? space shipe, cultur, conquest, U.N. ?

 

[Architect]

The only victory condition enabled is domination.

Just as an update, Joanie, died 5 turns after our agreements ended. I managed to get both TOE and Hoover triggering my Golden Age. I and the rest of the world, at my doing, are in a WW against the Zulu. For some reason, Cathy has gobs of money in this game (16,000) at one point. I used the two techs I got from TOE to get over 15,000 in gold from her. The value of Electronics did not change after building hoover which suprised me too.

 

[civ_steve]

Obviously, a good set of Trades!

Trading is so important in Civ3. You only mentioned gpt. I assume you also had luxuries that you were trading away, at some point. I know I'm doing well if I have control of at least 3 luxuries. Funny thing is that different civs value different things. I've not had much luck trading luxuries to the Aztecs, Zulus or Japanese, but the Persians, Germans and others have paid handsomely for the same luxuries. I've noticed similar tendencies when trading Technologies and Strategic Resources. And I've found it hard to get any good gpt trades from the commercial civs.

I believe that the traits of the civs have a bearing on what they're willing to trade for items. This along with the potential trading partner's status, your global position, how they feel about you (Polite, annoyed, etc.), how badly they want what you are offering, and other aspects, figure into the equation of what they'll pay you. Getting a better feeling for these aspects should lead to ideal trades.

One more thing: after you ask what they want for something you have, you can usually increase their offer. They try to lowball the bid.

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

Excellent tip! Thanks for sharing that with us. I usually play at regent level so I might give this a try and see if it works at regent.

 

[kb2tvl]

That was a very masterful maneuver! Gold and not research seems to be more important at these levels.

 

[Gundam]

What he did was not a masterfull meneuver, was just luck(although I admit he had not missed such an oportunity thus proving some skill)However a masterfull maneuver is to advance in the tech three only using your power not by trading with some dying AI(which is sherr luck).When I mean power I mean having enough economical power either to sustain a huge army taking the techs by force or to outresearch the ai-I can definately tell u that u can do that when u reach industrial age; u must level someway with them by that time by any means necesary but do not despair couse once past the nationalism the ai does simply has not yet the power to research any of the tech in less than 20 turns :O so the trading is not that efective-
ps:this comes from a player who only plays huge pangea maps with 15 ai on EMPERROR or even deity-Sometimes couse I'm not that pacient-

 

[Bamspeedy]

It was not luck. Very smart trading! With careful planning, you can come back from alot of situations that seem hopeless. I wrote an article in the strategy articles section about how when I was all alone on an island and then met a civ and found there were 6? other civs, some of whom were 9! techs ahead of me! For the price of establishing embassies and something like 13 gold/turn, and trading some excess luxuries and map I got contact with all the other civs, all 9 techs, everyone's world map, ROP with everyone, another luxury, and everyone's polite to me because of my heavy trading with them. Went from having only 3 techs in the middle ages (monotheism, theology, Education) to steam power in 3 turns.

There are many aspects of Civ3. Trading/diplomacy can be just as powerful as pounding the techs out the AI or hoping they self destruct so you FINALLY catch up to them in tech with your own infrastructure. And with heavy trading, everyone will like him better, so he will gain alliances alot easier, instead of having all the AI ally against HIM!

 

[Tassadar]

Gundam

But i am pretty sure he will take a lead sooner or later, he was able to suck out 15 000 gold from russia, so it is a lots of money to spend. He got Hover dam, which is very good and a.i. wage war so it will slow down them. I hope architect will keep us inform whith his game.

 

[Architect]

Gundam,

The prime point of my thread was the new power of nationalism to gain an advantage over the AI. Clearly the advantage that the Nationalism Slingshot provides is dependant on the game situation. However, even and 4th and 5th civ prices I was getting 50gpt+, and 3 techs for it. From you poor spelling and grammer you are either not a native english speaker or young so you might want to reread my original post because you missed the point methinks. Also with my plains start I was slowed on expansion and the AI had me bottled in very fast. I had no choice but to turtle up which is a common problem in Deity games.

Game Update:

The Americans have been eliminated and I have started dealing a blow to the zulu. After ripping their offensive army to shreds with 50+ artillery I have razed, captured or abandoned 10 of their cities with 4 of those being close to their core. I am moving on the rest of the core cites right now making my way towards a coal and oil resource. Doing this without Armor is very painful, but I'm leveraging my GA to the max and slogging it out with Infantry, Calvary, and Artillery.
Because I have been able to manipulate the AI through my trading the remaining three (Aztec, Indian, and Russian) are all Gracious with me as we all continue to pound on the Zulu. I am the only Civ with Radio and I'm hoping the rest of the AI proceed down the Combustion path and I can use Radio to get mutliple techs.

 

[GI Josh]

Well done, Architect, very masterfully played! I just want to point out that your 'Nationalism slingshot' strategy is not dependent upon the increased value of nationalism post 1.29. I consistently play a builder style, focusing on religious and commercial improvements while keeping by far the smallest army around (note, typically 6-8 civs, standard map, emporer level). Even prior to 1.29, your strategy works well. I quickly build 6-9 cities with plenty of room, and then I build, build, build. I will typically fall way behind (like 8+ techs) in the middle ages tech and military wise, but as my infrastructure comes online, my economy improves to the point where I can start buying techs. I constantly trade on the ai's terms to stay out of war and build up reputation and techs. If I am attacked, then I buy an alliance with everyone else and let them bear the brunt of the fighting.

Then it's TOE, hoover's, and suddenly I'm cranking out the military, ready to take over the world with the help of my pick of friendly civs.

The bottom-line lesson is that trade/diplomacy are a strategy unto themselves. The "givens" that I've seen elsewhere (dense build, early war, etc.) aren't givens, they are really just one style of play, and from any starting position there are always multiple viable strategies.

 

[Neomega]

I got a crazy story for you.........
I always play Emporer, 16 civs, and random all else.

This map seemed to be 80% water, continents, mild, 4 billion.

I was placed on a continent with three other civs, Germans (me), French, Russians, and English. I wiped them out, felt lucky to get a great wonder up in time, The Great Library. But it got me nothing, I had defeated my enemies, and by the time it was built they were too war exhausted to have any advanced technology.

But I knew other civs were out there.

So I set my science to 10%, and waited.

I had thousands in gold, no- one to trade with, and no way to get off my continent. I refused to research into anything leading to education, which meant no astronomy, so I waited to see a ship off my shore.

It was a Iroquois Galleon. I was researching Invention. I contacted them, bought contacts from them, and bought contacts from their contacts. I still wasn't sure if I would get merely two technologies from my great library, the one before education and education.

In all I made 9 contacts in one turn.

The next turn the Great Library paid off in a way I never could have imagined. I got every single advance from the medeival era. Bounced into the industrial era and picked up nationalism for my scientific trait.
With massive amounts of cash I upgraded all my spearmen left over from my continental war to riflemen, all my catapults to cannon, and I was on my way to a huge domination victory over the world

 

[Tassadar]

But great library is cancel with education, so how can you learn from it if another a.i already got galleon( which need education as a prerequest). Do you have latest patch because i think 1.07 had this bug .

 

[Neomega]

It only becomes obsolete once YOU get education. I have the latest patch. You see, it really is better explained as this, it becomes obsolete the TURN you get education. Also you can only learn techs from the civ you have made contact with. Since I had no contact with any civs with education, it could not be obsolete. I have found it very raer to be in the 1200's with 16 civs, and only have made contact with three.

 

[Tassadar]

Oh , i understand now. TY

This is why the owner of great lightouse can still have 4 move galley while i already got magnetism. It is the owner of a great wonder who can obsolete it.

 

[Catt]

First off - Architect - a great example of employing trading skills in the game.

Originally posted by Neomega
I had thousands in gold, no- one to trade with, and no way to get off my continent. I refused to research into anything leading to education, which meant no astronomy, so I waited to see a ship off my shore.

I have only had a GL rush like yours once - and only got as far as Astronomy or so -- to get to Nationalism .

Just wanted to point out that you could also set your science to 0% to collect a bit more gold and also to eliminate the risk of getting to Education before you meet a bunch of civs.

Also, you could send galleys and caravels into the seas - many may sink, but eventually one might survive long enough to make it into a coastal square (50% chance of sinking each turn it ends in a sea square). It is defintiely debatable whether the "suicide galley" would be a "better" tactic - turtling and waiting for the rush certainly allows for a nice treasury build-up.

In any event - you certainly did the right thing by buying contact all at once - it would really suck to buy contact with only one other civ, get the GL rush to Gunpowder or Astronomy, have the GL go obsolete, and only then discover that you secured contact with the two most backward civs - the others on the new continent are all at Nationalism

Good job

 

[Gundam]

Architecht -Youre right I'm not a native English speaker :O but I can tell u one thing: your build order it's flawed couse even on deity u can outnumber some civs and I'm not arguing that you do not know how to play civ or you're a newbie what I wanted to say is that one cannot just turtle just hoping that a smaller civ could get them all the techs one needs.You know wery well that once U've started a war in order to expand u can kiss your ass goodbye to those rop's from at list half of civilizations on the map.
ps though you're right about nationalism but it's as you said a game dependant situations and I'm not the turtling kind a guy...if I cannot take out my neigbours in order to expand I'll quit playing CiV3 and trust me 35+ swordmen and 10+ horses(almost all regular) can wipe out almost any civilization early in the games...-except Persia but you can still criple them-