[BTS] Deity stumbling IV

[Snowbird]

Okay, so I found time and motivation to try deity once more. I might actually finish or be finished by by barbs, AI boxing or bad choices. Mot likely the last one.

Start is below

Spoiler :

I am not a super expert on fog reading, but 1NW of gold looks FP (green part of visible is spotty with desert, or it looks like that)


If so I would probably move 1W... since farmed FP is like 1 gold worse than crabs without lighthouse. Going worker first BW chop boat... in such case I think extra growth from even unfarmed FP might compensate for moving by the time the first settler is out.

Kubla of Carthage(close to Quin anyway)
Fractal, no events, no huts, unrestricted leaders (I do not play with restricted leaders normally - too boring)

 

[Pedro78]

Did you move the warrior already? Otherwise I would move him 1NW. The tile 1NW of the gold looks like a grassland to me (not 100% sure). Moving 1W looks like the good move here, though. Because it would mean a better long term capital, but mostly because moving inland (even by one tile) can make handling the barbs much easier later on. This combined with being CRE should make the whole thing pretty easy (unless you really have a lot of land).

I don't like these fishing starts with no 3F or 3H tile. If you happen to have a FP or an agriculture/AH resource in BFC then I'd go for a worker "standard" opener, because in this case it's much faster (Fishing would still be the first tech after Mining, though). If nothing then I'd build a warrior while working the spices and waiting for fishing (good for early exploration/fogbusting), grow to size 2 and complete the workboat working max hammers. Then build a worker while going Mining-BW.

Anyway with this kind of start (can share 1 clam to the north and the crab to the south with other cities, marble, gold), the game should be rather forgiving, assuming that you don't have Monty next door

 

[elmurcis]

Unrestricted leaders.... hmm... could be interesting.. Monty but with Praets for example
I would cross fingers for Copper/Iron/Horse in that BFC 1W from Spices tile Anyway 1W seems good, use all sea food (I'm not so big fan of sea-food with barbs but in general they give food and some nice commerce that early can be more importante than 1 extra food from some corn tile for example).

 

[Snowbird]

Did you move the warrior already?

Then build a worker while going Mining-BW.

It's Carthage, man... starts with Fishing/Mining. Moved warrior -- he was 1SE from current position.
Regarding borders... Let's view this as an example --- FP has greenish border next to river with some sandy spots on it.

From my simplified view - anything green with white spots which does not touch water (banks are allways white) is FP. It is significantly simplified but predicts well enough. (1N2W -- I think is also FP).

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes, those are floodplains.

Agreed that settling 1W seems good.
Worker first, sure. Research Bronze. Chop into workboat while growing on floodplains. That much is pretty straightforward.

An important question relates to : how many early workboats do you want to produce in Carthage ?
The 1st workboat is a given but any additional ones should be considered carefully.
Those are not strong seafood tiles that you have and WBs "die" when you use them.
Of course, exploration is needed to make enlightened choices but I'd mentally prepare myself to delay the 2nd workboat for quite a while. (Need warriors, not workboats to not die ; need workers/settlers, not workboats to claim the land.)

 

[Pedro78]

It's Carthage, man... starts with Fishing/Mining

Lol the Kublai thing made me mix things up. I assumed Mongolia with Agri+Hunting . That kind of changes everything..

 

[Pedro78]

An important question relates to : how many early workboats do you want to produce in Carthage ?

I'd say that with no 3F tile, it's usually better to improve all 3 seafood, even if these are crabs/clams. Having FP(s) or another seafood changes things. As you're going to get BW soon you'll want to whip.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Most certainly, you're not improving all three seafoods before producing a settler.
Whipping workboats is also definitely not a good move. Overflowing hammers into workboats is ok, if an adequate amount of warriors have already been produced.
Maximizing overflow to complete boats faster is debatable.

Improved clams/crabs only add +1 production towards building settlers/workers, compared with your regular grassland forest tile.
--> They're not high priority tiles to improve.
--> They require Sailing and a Lighthouse to be power tiles.
Pre-Lighthouse, commerce is the most notable gain from those workboats. Again, not a priority. Especially given Gold tile and non-FIN leader.
Even with a FIN leader, not a priority compared with the first few settlers. (Dependent on the land.)

 

[Pedro78]

Most certainly, you're not improving all three seafoods before producing a settler.
Whipping workboats is also definitely not a good move. Overflowing hammers into workboats is ok, if an adequate amount of warriors have already been produced.
Maximizing overflow to complete boats faster is debatable.

• I never said I'd whip workboats, nor did I say I would improve all three seafood before first settler
• Most likely improve 2 seafood while growing to size 4 (work the gold) and whip a settler, city most likely goes somewhere 3N to share the gold and 1 seafood that will be improved right after the settler is done.

Improved clams/crabs only add +1 production towards building settlers/workers, compared with your regular grassland forest tile.

Yup but they add 2 food. It makes whipping settlers and growing back on warriors/wbs very efficient. And they add some commerce (less needed here as you have gold, but usually very useful). And in this case they are your ONLY food.

Let's say you have 2 dry rices as the only food and 2 grass hills. Will you improve the grass hills after the first rice, only because they add 2 hammers which is better than one food when building settlers?


Oh and a 4 food tile is a power tile after granaries ^^

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Ok, maybe I haven't been very precise in my wording
I don't think we're talking about the same point of the game. I was talking very early game. First steps.
Maybe getting the second workboat before starting on a settler is strong. I do not know. Haven't thought that far. I meant to point out that : you need a strong reason to justify building boats over settlers/workers.
It's only with exploration and an idea of the lay of the land that one can make an informed decision.

I wouldn't whip the first settler when there's a gold tile (food negative) in the capital's BFC.

Yes, you improve the 2 dry rices before the hills. But improving rices doesn't "use up" 30 hammers items.




example for clarity :
Say there's a wet corn tile that could be claimed with city two,
It's much better to stagnate the capital 1 size lower and build 1 less workboat,
So as to claim the good tile earlier,
Than it is to delay the settler and invest chops into the capital's workboats.

Early game, a classic question is : what's the next tile you wanna work ?
Is it in the capital's BFC or is it outside ?
Such questions give you hints @ what size you wanna start on a settler/worker.
Other related questions can be :
How long does it take for the capital to grow an extra size ?
How much faster would settler/worker production be, if the capital grew an extra size ?

Here, my gut feeling says there's little incentive to grow past size 3 before starting on a settler.

 

[Pedro78]

It's only with exploration and an idea of the lay of the land that one can make an informed decision.

^
A lot of good thoughts in your post, BiC, but you indeed can't really decide on what size you will build the settler at before you know where your second city will be.

I find fishing starts to be the most fun to play, because there's just so many options with them. With early coastal seafood and early BW they give you access to a decent amount of commerce and production. It's really interesting to find the right balance between those

 

[Snowbird]

I find fishing starts... more fun with the actual fish being around.

Progressed to 3160BC (~t21 )

Spoiler :

Known land (5 turns until next border pop)


So moved 1W, closest suspected tile was FP, another not. Well, went worker first, chopped forest... worked spices to get WB faster without doing spreadsheet...

Now, then I rethink it, it trades 5 food for five hammers to get WB ~4 turns faster but grows later (at least a turn lost on reaching size two, but ofcourse without WB there is no other food positive tile -- second chop would probably be in time, hmmm), so probably net loss in production but rather minor (~2food?). One other hand I suspect it will be a while before I work gold and commerce matters (I'd rather make riverside green mine and try making effort to claim another gold and FP farm happens earlier with earlier WB -- well, maybe.)

(Edit: did some proper calculations -- -2food/+4hammers seems same turn for growth/teching Agri - with whipping and chop likely being into warrior I'd rather have +2 food, sigh)

Near land looks great. FP to the north, deer shared crabs to the south and wheat/cow/gold near Babylon.

So far met -- Mehmed II of Babylon (turn 3) and Mao of Sumeria (does not put spy points either on me or on Mehmed - so has close/multiple neighhbours?)

I am still short of reaching Agriculture, so worker chops another tile --- chop out warrior? (there are some barb archers on all sides, but there is also Babylon units near.) Alternatively put the chop into settler, but I think I probably try whipping him 4>2, and I can't grow to the size 4 in 10 turns... I don't think mining some hills is a priority... since with lack of productions I need to whip a lot and upcomming FP farm takes some time too (FP farm is close to free WB, IMHO, so beats any chop ideas).

Edit: After writing I started consider putting chop into settller, keep producing it untill FP farm done and whipping 3>2. Point being being that Wheat/Cow/Gold being such a good site, especially for creative and could pump few settlers/workers.

 

[Snowbird]

to t41

Spoiler :

teched wheel -hunting-AH(in progress)
overall proceeded with plan



Need to scout North badly. Worker... I don't know - chops current forest, while second city tries create it's own worker while waiting for borders to pop?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes, chop forest into 8 turns worker is good. Especially so since Utica has that 2H city tile and lacks any 3F tile to grow on.

I do not know why you whipped that settler. From your tile improvements, you're set up to whip the next settler 4-->2, correct ?
I think it's a pity but alright. I mean, there's this gold tile that screams : "work me, don't whip !"

AH is good. Not sure whether researching Hunting was worth your trouble. Deer+Marble isn't really a pay-off location. And it's not contested either.
The deer is no better than a farmed floodplains and you've got another marble up north. For all it's worth, you can settle there in 1000 BC.
Getting a fogbusting warrior into the south-west tundra seems like a good move, though (follow into the fray of an AI unit for safety).

 

[Snowbird]

whipped settler, because it would take ages to produce it otherwise? at size 3 cap generates ~8 hammers into settler... so... it regrows about same time as settler would be finished, except other site is founded 4 turns earlier, which eventually speeds stuff.
Utica (after border pop) has better food than cap. Also whipping allows complete warrior through overflow. All the benefits. Well, except not working gold, but it is only 3 yield tile towards settler.

Hunting --- idea was that I save some beakers on AH, since well, I don't need Pottery or writing urgently (should start thinking about connecting to AI, although). should I went straight for AH (instead of wheel). I would have seen horse, which... well, would let to another settling decisions.

to t51 - whipped cap again.

Spoiler :

Initially I was planning to settle on plains next to Incense, but the copper.... I could settle 4N of the capitol and take farmed FP instead of clams (which eventually eliminates need for lighthouse). Ofcourse that would mean gold... might not be worked until post granary. If i had it improved I could at least work at turns when settler is being produced...

Also met --- Stalin of Ottomans and Augustus of China. The latter is the worst enemy of several civs already...
Pottery is in 3 turns... which likely means whipping cap again soon. The worker has been farming second FP (~2 turns), but I start thinking chopping wb might be better, need to time the overflow into granary somehow. (still plan two whip granary, but could store part of chop for the next build).

Basically trying to optimize this (probably partially unsuccessfully) makes my head hurt.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Fair enough yes, trying to optimize can be a headache. Making sound strategic decisions usually is the most important part.

Don't mind my whining @ early whipping. I just don't understand the craze about it (Fippy, Kaitzilla, Pedro, then you, everybody seems to be huge on it). I tend to think that at best, it comes out equal with not whipping. More often than not, I think it is a loss.

Yes, the copper is sort of appealing. The location you marked seems fine. It's a grabber.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

It's probably around this time that you can start looking a little ahead and make plans for the future.
- How many peacefully settled cities are you looking at ?
- What sort of techs do you want ? Are some a priority ?
- What possible routes could you consider for further expansion ?

An exact answer to all of those questions would be premature but getting an idea of what's coming after Writing could surely help.
If you can anticipate (even roughly) your tech level at the end of your initial expansion phaze, that's a great help to determine the techs you actually need.

 

[Fippy]

I would say anything that gets settlers out at all in reasonable time is good to use with that start
Very weak cap for expanding (but really good later), so i would agree with Snowbird that working gold early hurts getting cities even more.
Usually i would rather sacrifice commerce than expansion, with early rush planning probably being an exception.

 

[SittinDown]

I like the spot 6 N of your Cap from turn 51. Looks like the cows are already under someone's cultural control.

• Saw you liked 6N,1W. Also good, but a border city on flat land can be expensive to defend... though you can share the wheat, in this case the wheat is a dry 3F, I think, so it's just as good as FP, and sharing isn't all that great.
• Since you're CRE, it might be interesting to go one more north from that, but that's a riskier diplomatic play, but gets you a 2H city tile.

Diplo options should start to come into play here, since you likely will only have copper for military.


Land to the North West looks .... dry... but it's probably worth scouting soon. Maybe there's a good coastal spot there.

 

[Snowbird]

I like the spot 6 N of your Cap from turn 51. Looks like the cows are already under someone's cultural control.

• Saw you liked 6N,1W. Also good, but a border city on flat land can be expensive to defend... though you can share the wheat, in this case the wheat is a dry 3F, I think, so it's just as good as FP, and sharing isn't all that great.

6N would kill the other dot spot, which is all the point settling so faraway. I actually ended picking 4N, mostly to secure metal, even if I have no intentions to rush mining it. Well, I thought the next settler will happen later, so.. probably not ideal play.

Edit: maybe it does not kill other spot actualy. I think I liked it due to greenhills. The defense question is rather unlikely (I think all neighbours with visible land hate Augustus and we are not sharing much borders, yet).

pics

Spoiler :

Land which is cute but good deal to far away (and might be claimed already).


Our glorious capitol, size two again


Another horsie spot (blocks more tundra...)

It's T68 -- I've got my granary and new settler... I am rationalizing on settling tundra horsies (city would steal goldmine from utica and utica would probably go for fast library and two scientists - outside of horsies city sucks ). Kind of wish, I would settled the north in two cities. Ofcourse can settle crabs/horse/fur but that needs lot of worker force, which I would rather use to cottage FP. (Between Fp farming and chopping - land improvement is somewhat lacking.)

Got 38 hammer overflow in cap... could be most of library, workboat or good chunk of worker. I think workboat is out of question. Library is tempting, but I need to produce extra worker somewhere (one pop whip granary overflow into worker in Utica maybe). Non capitol gold should be online in 2 turns (whipping Utica after gold is given away to horse settlement).


Met Quin of dutch... traded crabs for corn, which will help with health at some point. Quick viewed military screen shows everyone has iron and some is on trade screen(I was checking if I could do something with HA if anybody lacked metals - the answer is no.). From here comes rational for horsies - settle them, find/trade iron --- cap is rather good for Lib race, neighbours seem to be not good techers and presumably reachable by land. (My experiences with trading for horsies are rather bad).

Tech wise I think Aesthetics is must - trade bait, marble stuff, Paya for failgold. With Quin and Agustus in game, wonders seem going awfully late -- ~1900BC great wall and no Oracle so far. Ofcourse this is clearly not a situation to consider building early wonders myself.