Deity University - Lincoln

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by kossin, Mar 16, 2010.

  1. Earthling

    Earthling Deity

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    I am perfectly fine with the next round being soon but I already played straight through to 100 anyway.

    spoiler for a slight taste of why I really don't like my position though (although I will continue playing my own save/see what comes in general)

    Spoiler round 2 preview be warned :
    Montezuma settled my gems city site from overseas somewhere around turn 70s. Barbs were only a pain; no real nice barb cities and Toku expands towards us real fast.

    In fact I'm still worried this may not be manageable at all except by luck but those with stronger teching/settling early on of course are better off than I; however it all seems to depend if you can prevent Toku from DoWing (the only way I think this is manageable otherwise is a save like kossin's where you somehow settle east towards Toku's floodplains ASAP). And a Deity DoW/relations this early are still kinda luck by religion spread or whatever. He hasn't DoW'd me yet though and Monty did DoW Zara in my game so that's something I guess, and libraries + GS are also something we have going for us.
     
  2. tempuraki

    tempuraki Warlord

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2005
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    122
    First 50 with Great Wall:

    Spoiler :

    Tech: Mining, Bronze, Masonry, AH
    Build order: Worker, Warrior, Great Wall, Warrior.

    Initial warrior got mauled by a bear, so recon was bad. To get GW asap, I worked the lake from the beginning instead of corn to get +2C to help research. Still, it was very close, a barb warrior and a barb archer were right next to Washington when I whipped the GW.




    View attachment Lincoln Deity University BC-2000.CivBeyondSwordSave
     
  3. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    @tempuraki
    Spoiler :
    Ah! Nice gamble and it worked. Washington is a bit underdeveloped as a result however. Personally I prefer to use Chariots here as you need less hammers to do "about the same job" and this way you don't get spy GPP.
     
  4. tempuraki

    tempuraki Warlord

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    Spoiler :
    Heh, that's an understatement, your DR28 kinda spooked me and I was in the gambling mood so I went for it :) Chariots are definitely better since we have Toku for neighbor, and I was hoping for some GSpy action, but Toku is hardly the ideal target.
     
  5. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    Jul 31, 2009
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    Location:
    Dijon, France
    Sounds interesting. Played till turn 50.

    Spoiler :
    My play is quite similar to Kossin's. Pics:
    Spoiler :




    1. Tech: Hunting => AH => Archery => Wheel => Mining => BW.

    Just at the first page of the thread, I guessed there would be horse in the BFC and it's true. I thought Archery could be skipped but finally I don't think it's a good idea.

    In fact in this kind of deep forest, Archers do a much better job than Chariots: they are strong (in the forest or on the hill), cheap (25h compared to 30h of a chariot) and moves as fast as a chariot in the forest.

    To research Archery would delay 4 turns of research (compare Kossin's save with mine). Return is a saver environment (around barbarians and Toku, good luck...) and a save of a quota of WFYBTA. I do think it's worth a try.

    2. Build: Worker=>Warrior=>Archer=>Archer=>Archer=>Worker=>Settler

    Question: One worker or two before settler?

    Maybe to someone's surprise, in this kind of deep forest, building road may be as efficient as chopping when rushing cities. For example, the cap is producing 15 output on building a settler. Chopping tree costs 4 turns of a worker and accelerate the settler by 1.33 turn. And building road (cost = 3 turns of a worker) maybe double the movement of the settler in the forest, so he may arrive in the location 1 turn earlier. Mathematically, it's the same thing.

    Go back to the question, to build one worker or two depends firstly on the tech line decision. If Wheel is available early, worker can find something to do so two workers maybe good. In my case, wheel is postponed behind Archery, and then cap is busy building archers+settler so no time to build another one. But finally it makes no difference: at turn 50, 2 workers are built and road between cap the 2nd city is connected.

    3. Positioning of cities

    What's a good 2nd city? 4 Elements:

    1. Good position to block neighbours.
    2. Good commerce to fund the expansion.
    3. Good production to build workers/units.
    4. Strategic resources.

    As our cap is quite poor in commerce (at least, at the beginning), the 2nd city is firstly supposed to cover it. Having found no available gold/gems, settling the 2nd city down by the sea is a good choice: to gain some cheap commerce on the sea tiles. Then to consider the blocking position, then the production.

    I settle down the 2nd city to block Zara. Then at point A, I think it's not bad to build a third city here to block Toku: if he is coming fast.

    Other infos:
    Built: 1 warrior 3 archers 2 workers 1 settler
    Building: 2nd settler (37h)
    Loss: 0
    Killed: 2 warrior 6 archers
     

    Attached Files:

  6. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Looks pretty good dingding.... As expected :goodjob:

    Spoiler :
    Indeed Archery is a decent investment as Chariots don't receive defensive bonuses.
    I didn't work the lake that much however and went for a second worker earlier which explains the 4 turns difference on research I believe. I need some more micro on my openings as some saves clearly managed to get quite a few more beakers researched with spare gold on top.
     
  7. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Oslo
    First 50
    Spoiler :
    Settled in place. Worker + hunting -> AH.
    Switch to lake until corn is farmed after worker.
    AH reveals horses. Pasture horse after corn and get a 2nd worker at size 2.



    Met Toku and Zara. Both civs put very few EP on me, so I will definitely meet more AIs soon. I put my EP on Zara to see his research.
    Lose my first barb battle at 63% chance of victory, but no losses after that.
    Start on my 1st settler at size 5.



    Zara has finished writing and started on alphabet. I put research on sailing for overseas trade routes.
    techs researched: hunting -> AH -> wheel -> mining -> BW



     

    Attached Files:

  8. Kid R

    Kid R Emperor

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    Rusten, in 50 turns you have built 1 settler, 1 worker (roaded neatly without deviation to city 2), 3 military (killed 7), when the rest of us have built like 6-8 military and nothing else. More detail on elite thought processes please...? I despair. :sad:
     
  9. Udey1

    Udey1 Prince

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    Location:
    Champaign Illinois
    Pshaw, There are quite a few good postings for round 1.
     
  10. Eplekjekk

    Eplekjekk Chieftain

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    To be frank I don't see Rusten's save as being so far ahead of everyone else as you make it out to be. There are plenty of saves with at least two workers and a settler or a second city that has a road leading to it.
     
  11. eireksten

    eireksten Protective/Organized

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Oslo, Norway
    Turn 0-50 of my first ever Deity game! :) Spent 30 minutes on them, so can imagine I'll sit for days on the later rounds :p

    Forgot to turn on resource view on the screenshots, but I guess most of you already know where the resources are.

    Spoiler :
    Discovered Ethiopia on turn 5, while Japan found me on turn 10. A Barb Archer killed my warrior on turn 13 :) Managed to get a grip on the barb situation after that (played very defensively, running to forested hills). Improved the horses after the corn, which helped a lot on getting those warriors ready. Built a settler when at size 5, which was the amount of decent tiles I got before chopping.

    Build Order
    Worker -> Warrior -> Warrior -> Warrior -> Worker -> Warrior -> Chariot -> Settler -> Chariot

    Tech Path
    Hunting -> Animal Husbandry -> The Wheel -> Mining -> Bronze Working



    Not sure where to go from now, but my first thought was to go Pottery -> Writing. I'm not very used to being philosphical, but could it be an idea to skip pottery and aim for earlier scientists? I'm basically thinking that the long-term benefits of cottages early on is better than getting started on GPP sooner, but any advice is appreciated.

    I've only just settled New York towards Japan (Ethiopia seems to be on a different landmass), and have started worrying about my economy.







     

    Attached Files:

  12. Bugg123

    Bugg123 Prince

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    463
    Teching:

    Spoiler :
    So it seems going mining-bw first wasn't the smart thing to do :)

    Anyways.. for me it's a lot safer to defend with archers in this type of forested and hillside terrain. If I knew for a fact there would be horses, that'd possibly change things around, but I still like dingdings way of getting defences up. Which is likely a smarter and safer way of doing what I was trying to do...

    I did replay my start (doing the same thing, fogbusting the same tiles etc) only I built WB first and the big difference was I placed NY on the hill (where it probably should be, and where a lot of players put it). Just added that in here as well for reference. It'll be the one I continue on.



    @ Dingding:
    Spoiler :

    If you had explored all the way to Zara, seing him on another landmass.. would you still put New York in it's current location? Or would you leave cows for gem-city, potentially?

    Is there a resource somewhere that spells out how the map generates starts? I couldn't really be sure or know there were horses around.


    @the saves:
    Spoiler :

    Seems like most saves chose Hu-Ah and settling behind. Not sure there's that much difference in them. If you have defences up, at least one worker and a 2nd city you're probably not doing too badly. The difference seems mostly in the micro to squeak out a few extra beakers where possible.

    I guess maybe the major difference will be how everyone moved their warrior in the first (or first few) turns now, which would decide how Toku settles.


    I'm all for going with the next turnset anytime. Seems like there's a lot of interest in this thread, so might as well get going?
     

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  13. Kid R

    Kid R Emperor

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    True, I just saw Rusten was posting, and before I even read it I knew he was going to make it look easy, and he did. :lol: As you say there are several who scouted SW and got a seafood city down. That certainly looks like a strong way to start.
     
  14. Civahaulic

    Civahaulic Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Brazi
    @Kid R

    I played your 1-50 with writing to 100+:

    Spoiler :
    And I'm sold on it being a superior tech path. What an amazing difference it has on the economy. But the one thing wrong with your 1-50 save is you don't have a road started going west. You're basically foreced to settled new york on the cows / rice / clams. It's a great spot for a city, but it's the wrong choice for a first city IMO and leads to problems.


    In round one, is there anyone who
    Spoiler :
    did 1-50 tech path Hunting ->AH -> Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing that went for a city to the west to block Zara? In that first 50? and has the save?
     
  15. Earthling

    Earthling Deity

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    civahaulic/others who have played to 100:

    Spoiler :
    I obviously agree Animal Husbandry first to writing is better, I certainly lost quite a few turns/wasted stuff to barbs without having chariots out soon enough. And quicker libraries/scientists/tech is important.

    But how is Toku working out for you? I cannot see settling to the west coast possibly being the best answer in retrospect; Toku expands towards us so fast that I think the optimal game, if I were to replay from the start, would have to be cutting Toku off. Luck with barb cities to the Southwest (gems) may help prevent someone settling it -in my game, again, it was MONTY...but if there's any way we can manage expansion it would have to be Toku's way.


    About other saves:
    Spoiler :
    Again for me it seems kossin's save is still the best but I don't think he got straight to writing...and I don't see a save with the qualities you're looking for. Whoever had the first writing save is better than most of the rest of us though but I'm not sure expanding west is the right call. Anyway just waiting to see what people make of turn 100 myself; I'm sticking with my save as I said to see what I can make of things. I'm on Aesthetics for trade and just after 100 should start working on Scientists, but I only have like 6 cities I think, boxed in and worried about Toku DoW. If we survive the early game maybe a nice invasion of Zara or something could work well in the end though, and if Toku is converted to an ally he shouldn't be much trouble otherwise.


    Edit: right, a little early - anyway I'm just interested how everyone fares and good luck to those still playing to 100; I will probably have my writeup ready nice and early for that checkpoint
     
  16. Civahaulic

    Civahaulic Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Brazi
    @Earthling

    Spoiler :
    Well, I've only played from my save and from Kid Rs so far. And it's a little early (by like 7 hours or so ;) ) to be talking too much about round 2.

    But . . . I think as long as you can get settle that Clam / rice / cow to the east before tok, it will be the only one you need east (asided from a gift city)

     
  17. Riot

    Riot Warlord

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    Jan 25, 2010
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    Say, why don't we close Round 1 today so we can talk about t50-100 tomorrow kossin?
     
  18. beestar

    beestar subdeity

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    Pacific Standard Time
    Man, you guys are way ahead of me. I don't think I'll have time to play rounds 50-100 until the weekend.

    Why don't you play BOTM28 in the meantime? :D
     
  19. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    Location:
    Dijon, France
    @Bugg123:
    Spoiler :

    We don't know exactly how Zara's land is, but we can guess from something.

    Firstly it's the moment he open the third/fourth/fifth city. If he expands rapidly, that probably means he has some space over there so he won't send settlers to our land so early.

    Secondly it's the EP. I met Zara at turn 7-8, and I had already EP advantage towards him the next round, that means his neighbor(s) is/are 7-8 turns away from him. Knowing that he is born in a peninsula, we can guess he can probably be blocked so he may prioticize to expand offshore. So not bad to block him with the second city.

    In fact I observed he had already built Galley at around turn 45. Dangerous settler.

    About city position, we will usually have a lot of choices in this kind of food-rich map. I just make a city planning for the southern part of our land. Gems cities seem to have too much of food. As there are some other GP farms, it doesn't need that much of food so NY can borrow the cow from it.
    Spoiler :

    I know nothing about the map generator and I haven't found anything about it. :mischief:

    No one can be 100% sure what kind of hidden resource there is about, but experience helps a lot. Usually strategic resources can be found in the BFC, in the "curiously empty" tile in the forest. And experience tell me horse usually appears with another AH resource. This map meets the both, so I guess there is horse.

    Anyway, the probability of appearance of horse in the BFC is about 15% (a friend of mine made a test about it), so even I guessed with my eyes closed, I can't be too wrong ;)
     
  20. Civahaulic

    Civahaulic Chieftain

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    Location:
    Brazi
    Round 1 take 2 The writing beeline with West coast. (I hope this is still in the spirit of the thread - a redux and all; but I still tried to act in way that was consistent w/o a priori knowledge)

    Spoiler :

    Worker - Warrior - Warrior - Worker - Chariot - Chariot - Settler

    Improve: Corn, Horse, Pig, Road to horse, Road to Ivory. Ivory. Road to New York, Road to Future Boston, Started Cows.

    Tech: H ->AH -TW-Pot-Writing

    Settle New York on West Coast with road built.

    Screenshot:




     

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