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Deity Venice Photojournal! Enrico the Blackbeard and the power of Trade and Diplomacy!

Discussion in 'Playthroughs and Photojournals' started by Owlbebach, Sep 1, 2018.

  1. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Alright, in one of the recent threads @CrazyG said that Venice is awful which bited me to show that Venice is not that bad. Turned out that was probably the most interesting games that i had for the past year!

    I already finished the game and have 110 awesome screenshots, but it will take quite a lot of time to compile them, therefore lets start with a bit of a discussion.

    Venice is probably the most controversial civilization and many players might be confused with how to play it.

    Do you think that Venice is weak? What strengths and weaknesses do you see?
    How would you approach the game playing for Venice?
    What would be your overall gameplan?
    What would be your primary Victory Condition?
    What policies would you choose? What pantheon would you choose?


    Spoiler Here is my start :
    upload_2018-9-1_16-30-33.png
    I moved Pathfinder, saw 3rd gold and decided to move my Capital to get it.


    Game Options:
    Deity, Standard, Pangea, Low Sea Level, Strategic Balance, 10 AIs,
    No Events, no Tech Trading, no Research Argreements

    Changes made to the difficulty:
    AIGrowthPercent: changed from 70% to 100% ==>> removed growth handicap (it is good, try it!)
    AIConstructPercent: changed from 70% to 60% ==>> AI will build buildings faster (to compensate fro Growth handicap)
    DifficultyBonusA: changed from 80 to 70 ==>> AI will be a bit weaker in the end (my last to games seemed like AI snowballs way to fast in the end game
    DifficultyBonusB: changed from 150 to 165 ==>> AI will be stronger in the middle of the game (my last games showed that AI is too weak around Renaissance)
    DifficultyBonusC: changed from 300 to 310 ==>> AI will be stronger in the early game (to compensate for Growth Handicap, which is more important in the early game)


    Discussions and conclusions:

    1) Growth handicap is just not needed. It just breakes balance and does nothing else. Seriously. Just try to play without it and you'll see.

    2) Arsenale di Venezia is bad. I think it should be reworked to somethin else. If possible i'd suggest it making so that you can buy units in Venice without penalty to XP. Otherwise it can grant bonus promotion to all units not only Navy, or maybe additional XP

    3) Ruins:
    • "Extra land" ruin is bad, sometimes it is better not to have it than have it. I suggest to remove it
    • Gold and Production ruins should be toned down. For Production and Gold i think they should give ~20% less.
    • Faith Ruins should be nerfed even stronger. I suggest it to give 30:c5faith: befor Pantheon and 100:c5faith: after Pantheon. 50:c5faith: and 200:c5faith: is way too much.
    4) I thinnk that World Religion proposal might be to strong. It is hard to pass it, but if you do so - you get A LOT. i think it might be toned down a bit

    5) Thoughts on Melee promotions:
    • Schock / March line: A nerf to March was a good decision. In this game i actually made some good use of Stalwart, but i think March still outperforms it.
    • Drill / Stalwart line: Problem with Stalwart is that you can't attack. You can defend and you do it great, but trading HP is very hard. I think Stalwart should get some buff, i suggest +10% combat strenght
    • Blitz is a useless promotion, i can't see any reason for picking it, this makes Drill line worse compared to Shock line. March and Stalwart are both good, but after March you can take Overrun which is cool and after Stalwart i was taking Shock, because other promotions were bad. I thing Blitz needs something, my suggestion would be maybe +1 movement or reduction of damage taken when attacking (something like -25% damage taken when attacking, similar to how Coastal Raiders work)
    6) Thoughts on Ranged Promotions
    • Barrage is better than i thought, i take my words back, it is not awful. It is much weaker than Accuracy but the main power is Logistics that grants double shot. What is so important here is that unit with Logistics levels up musch faster
    • Problems come after Logistics/Range. Accuracy line has +25% damage against units that are above 50 HP, which is great. Barrage line gets +15% outside friendly land. Why would i take that if i can simply take Accuracy?
    • My suggestion is to make Medic1 available for Barrage line. I think this will make up for perfect balance between two lines.
    7) 20% treshhold for Reformation is too much. This game is perfect example. The only civ that was able to reform naturally was Ethopia. Byz Reformed via St. Basil. I managed to reform on turn 250 only and that was because i captured and inquisited losts of cities, i had Scripture and i had 2 Vassals!

    8) Thoughts on Air units:
    • First of all they come too late. Air combat is an interesting part of the game, but in many games you just can't use them because the game ends.
    • They are extremely costly. If i'm not mistaken - Triplane cost about as much production as Pentagon!

    Please share your thoughts!
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2018
  2. CppMaster

    CppMaster King

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    I'm interested to see it :)
     
  3. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Already in progress! Writing takes quite a lot of time:) Especially in the beginning, because i have to lay out all of my gameplan and considerations in order to explain my decisions.

    To me first 70-90 turns are the most important part of the game. It is when you plan your strategy and set up the basis for it. After turn 150 - it is mostly about execution, i rarely change my gameplan after that.
     
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  4. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Did you play Venice? How would you play it?
     
  5. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Ugh, describing Venice takes much more time than i expected... I'll share part 1 tomorrow.

    Apparently no one plays Venice, don't you?
     
  6. Almonds

    Almonds Chieftain

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    I almost did a Venice game the other day, honestly they seem like a really interesting Authority civ. You can buy another city-state, units and all, super quick and use that plus an army of your own to rush an opponent.
     
  7. CppMaster

    CppMaster King

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    No, I haven't yet.
    Since Venice has only 1 manageable city, I would go for Culture Victory first or Science Victory second. 1 city means almost no penalty for tech cost and tourism. Diplomatic Victory and Domination Victory could be hard with such low production. Double amount of trade routes would certainly help Cultural Victory.
    Polices I would get: Tradition, Artistry, Rationalism, Freedom, Industry.
    Religion: Goddess of Beauty, science and culture per follower, To the Glory of God and some other beliefs.
     
  8. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    When did I say this?
    The big weakness that Venice has is obviously no settlers. This really hurts if there is a lot of empty land nearby. It also hurts on certain monopolies (but not gold!).
    If you start close to another civ, you can just wait for your neighbor to settle cities, then conquer them. This can be a great start (see my recent game where I only built 1 settler as Portugal. Venice would have been very strong there). The problem is if the neighbors are far away, you end up with this great start that other civs would love to have but you can't get extra cities.

    So you either do tradition and focus on making Venice the greates city. Or take authority and focus on war (I forget if Venice ever got extra supply for puppets. If he didn't this can be really tough to do late game). Pantheon is either God of All Creation and no religion, or you try to get a religion. The best options are probably Stonehenge + Goddess of Beauty, God of Festivals, or maybe God of the Expanse if you go tradition.
     
  9. Pooh Shaoqi

    Pooh Shaoqi Chieftain

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    Venice is one of my favorite civs to play tbh. I havent tried diety yet but ive played a warmongerer venice on immortal and it was really fun.
     
  10. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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  11. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ugal-photojournal.635234/page-5#post-15193751
    That is right, in addition to that Venice has a strong cultural building. However winning with 1 City is barely possible, so Venice should capture someone, even if planning to play Tourism.
    As you may see in my example - Venice has quite a lot of tools for Diplo and Domination too. Merchants are very useful for Diplo and you can get a lot of them. They are almost like a Great Diplomat
    I'm not sure about current numbers. I had huge problems with it in the early game as you may see, but no problems in the late game, in the end i had ~60 supply
    Yeah i was thinking about Beauty and mostly about Festivals for Tourism Venice. That can be pretty strong, especially if you settle one of the resopurces. (side note: just reilized that Ghandi can settle on the resourse and take Festivals.. that can be quite strong. 1 faith, 2 culture, 3 gold from turn 1)
     
  12. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Venice's ability itself is really weak. His other traits are crazy powerful though.

    You still need to unlock a tech before the resource connects.
     
  13. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Damn. It was such a good plan!
    I always treated all parts of uniques that civ has as a whole. For many civs their UU or UB is the most important part, while UA mediocre (like Askia or Washington)
     
  14. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Part 2 added: https://imgur.com/a/9VPSekx

    Fighting Persia this time, couple of very useful tacktical tricks inside! What Enhancer would you take? What will be your overall plan next?
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2018
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  15. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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  16. ridjack

    ridjack King

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    Note: I haven't actually looked at any of the photojournal to get details on this particular game.

    Venice was my favorite civ in vanilla and remains so here. It's easily my most comfortable role; whenever I move up in difficulties or need to see how particular changes are affecting things, Venice is the civ I'll play. I've done OCC, and I've done every victory condition except diplomatic (nothing to do with Venice, diplomatic play just isn't my cup of tea.) I haven't played them much in the last couple patches, so some of what I say might be less relevant. I also play on King and Emperor; Venice is probably the only civ I can consistently win Emperor with.

    Do you think that Venice is weak? What strengths and weaknesses do you see?

    Inarguably no. Anyone claiming Venice is weak doesn't understand the civ.

    Venice's weaknesses are pretty obvious. One fully-controlled city. You can puppet CS with your Merchants or conquer cities from the AI, but you have zero control over their placement. Supply is also a problem, since IIRC your puppets provide essentially none other than flat supply from things like Barracks. You can make your puppets build those buildings as long as you have the coin to invest, but you HAVE to have the money and, since you don't get the 'Ready for Production' popup, this takes more micromanagement than literally any other civ.

    And, of course, if you end up next to one of the unreasonable, hyper-aggressive AIs (Boudicca and Caesar are the worst for this, in my experience, but Shaka/Genghis/Attila are also obviously not great) I don't think anyone would blame you for considering a re-roll. It's extremely difficult to defend yourself against constant aggression and also try to thrive as Venice.

    The strengths are less apparent. Obviously, the reduced puppet yield penalty is excellent, but I generally find most of the strength to be in the trade routes. You can end up with something like 40+ TRs, which helps with nearly every single yield.

    How would you approach the game playing for Venice? // What would be your overall gameplan?

    Two conditions I'm looking for:

    - Complete isolation. Venice has way less downsides than anyone else for being isolated, and a lot of positives. This is the "ideal" situation, in my opinion.

    OR

    - Two or more nearby CS.

    The first one means you're in a very strong position to win a cultural or science victory with ease; the second one gives you the ingredients for a good domination game assuming they get out a decent army quickly enough, or you can just clear out nearby competition.

    One thing I do very differently as Venice versus any other civ is that I never capture AI settlers, and I will even defend them from barbarians or use ranged and let the AI re-take them where possible. Conquered cities and CS are the only two ways to get new cities; if anything, follow the lil settler with a couple archers and a warrior, wait for the settle and then just immediately capture the baby city.

    What would be your primary Victory Condition?

    Cultural VC is probably 60-70% of my Venice games. The absurd number of trade routes combined with Statecraft's tourism bonuses are actually pretty ridiculous for Venice.

    Domination is most of the remainder, with science VC being my least common aside from diplo which I never play with any civ.

    What policies would you choose?

    Tradition/Authority depending on what direction the game is taking -> Statecraft literally always and for every single VC -> Imperialism if you have or expect to have a lot of puppets, Industry otherwise. I've taken Artistry a handful of times and I don't think I've ever taken Rationalism, which probably helps explain why science VC is less frequent for me. Artistry isn't necessary or even particularly helpful for Venice CV; the vast majority of tourism will be coming from the TRs, in my experience.

    What pantheon would you choose?

    Goddess of Beauty or God of War if I actually want to try for a religion (which mostly serves to block another AI from having one, as you have almost no chance of spreading yours very well.) Otherwise it's just whatever will get me the most yields until an AI either converts me or leaves a Holy City vulnerable enough for me to capture it.

    I would have to agree re: Arsenale. I'm almost never hard-building units in Venice so the +production is useless. The +supply cap is almost unnoticeable. The bonuses to naval units are nice if you're in a game where that's appropriate, but the fact that it comes fairly early (Guilds) combined with Venice frequently being unable to explore as much as I'd like means that I frequently don't have enough info to make that decision. I don't even particularly love the Murana Glassworks for a CV; the Rialto District, on the other hand, is literally always useful even if it's not the absolute best for a specific situation. In my ideal world, the Arsenale would give a large, flat supply boost. Venice is always hurting for supply even when you've been conquering nonstop, and a flat supply boost might give me a reason to consider taking it even in peaceful games. I'm not sure what it would take to make me look at the Glassworks more often, but it would need to be substantial.
     
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  17. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Many of your points are correct, while others are not. Take a look at the game, i think you'll find many interesting ideas.
    Some time ago it was changed do that you now can change the build order for Vienice, so a bit less micromanagement now. But some years ago it was crazy
    Unless you are more aggressive than them lol
     
  18. ridjack

    ridjack King

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    I plan to! I'm sure there are plenty of things I never considered, but all this has worked so well for me that I haven't had much need to come up with other solutions.

    I never played in VP when you couldn't change it; it's still crazy high levels of micro to me. It's the main reason I don't do a full-on psychopath Venice all the time.

    You can do this well if you get a couple of nearby CS with decent military, but I have trouble pulling it off against any military-focused AI even in my King games. If you have almost any other AI nearby, chances are high you're going to get hit from another side while you're trying to pre-empt a warmonger. It's doable, but if fail your conquering attempt or get 2v1'd, it's pretty much over. And I consider myself quite a better than average at warfare in VP.
     
  19. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    You should be doing something wrong, probably you attack too late. I'm pretty sure that you can easily kill any AI with early rush. Spearmen or Horsemen + Archers and attack, you are almost guaranteed to hit before Walls, and before Walls you can easily capture cities with Archers and Spearmen
     
  20. ridjack

    ridjack King

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    I probably am! I have to admit based on what I'm seeing in that Venice game, you're almost certainly a better warmonger than I am. Persia as a neighbor is pure nightmare fuel. I'm going to have to try out your trick of leaving an injured unit alive; I've always gone for kill shots whenever possible.

    Genuine question: How do you have any fun on Deity? I'm seeing the absolutely absurd amount of units that Persia has, and nothing looks fun about that in the slightest. It looks like the most infuriating possible slog, even ignoring everyone else DoWing you while you're trying to deal with it. If it's always like that, I'm having a hard imagining ever wanting to play on Deity more than a couple times to prove I could.
     

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