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Deity Victory Condition Challenge

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by RuntyBassoon143, Aug 30, 2020.

  1. RuntyBassoon143

    RuntyBassoon143 Chieftain

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    The purpose of this challenge is to see which civs are the best for pursuing specific victory types. There will be two saves starting from the same spot: one for each of the top 2 civs for the chosen VC. All VC are enabled, but your goal is to compare the differences between them under optimal play. Because you will be playing the map twice, you will have extra information while playing the #2 civ; therefore, YOU MAY RESTART AS MANY TIMES AS YOU LIKE.

    How to play:

    1. Choose the civ which you think will have the fastest victory time.
    2. Play this game first.
    3. Play the other civ.
    4. Report your results and findings (include restarts and the preceding conditions).

    Challenge #1 - Science Victory: Korea vs. Babylon
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2020
    Tiberiu likes this.
  2. RuntyBassoon143

    RuntyBassoon143 Chieftain

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    Challenge #1 - Science Victory: Korea vs. Babylon

    Game 1: Choose the civ you think is best.
    Game 2: Play the other civ.

    Rules:

    You may restart and replay as many times as you like.
    Report your findings and best overall finish time.

    Opponents:

    Russia
    Persia
    India
    The Iroquois
    The Inca
    The Shoshone

    Babylon and Korea are in both games. Opponents were chosen based on the information gleaned through the EDG series about which civs the AI seems to play well.
     
  3. Tiberiu

    Tiberiu Warlord

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    Hello, cool experiment. You make your own rules, of course but I want to point out that turning ruins off and replacing Shoshone might give you a more representative result for 2 reasons: first, early ruin outcome can have a very big impact on a game, that is, one scenario is to get culture/population/faith for free pantheon, other scenario is to get map/barbs/upgrade. Another problem is that people will go straight to the ruins when replaying, getting perfect order too for best oucomes (various ruin outcomes change based on the order they are taken), and that is not only unrealistic in a normal game, but borderline cheating.
    Also, pointing out that map type can skew results slightly too, as Korea is better on pangaea types than on continents due to lack of caravel. I would assume Babylon to get automatic theoretical edge over Korea on Continents for this reason.

    Will you provide the maps or people must generate their own?
     
  4. raider980

    raider980 Warlord

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    (Edit. It will be shared maps so we all play the same map and starting locations.) I saw some save files in the EDGE thread but they're gone now. Maybe they were just practice. It looked like a good starting location, as long as there was a second luxury in the fog.

    Interesting point about the ruins. I don't know how to manipulate ruins, I always thought they came up in some random order. If I restart and go back to the same ruin, the same thing always comes up - unless its been a few turns different then I assume its because an AI popped a different ruin somewhere.
     
  5. RuntyBassoon143

    RuntyBassoon143 Chieftain

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    Excellent points. I had not considered that interaction between ruins and map knowledge. Although, ruins are part of the game and we can just note the impact. For example, if I am a few turns from hitting pop 3 I will often camp next to a ruin until my capital grows.

    Continents also increases the penalty for ignoring the top half of the tech tree and puts naval UU/UA at less of a disadvantage. I have a feeling this would also limit the effect from coastal start bias (trade routes). It also makes Liberty more appealing because the scout-monument opening becomes much stronger. I was already considering switching from Pangea to Pangea Plus. What do you think about using Continents or Continents Plus?

    Maps will be provided.

    I posted two different sets to test for issues with downloading and playing when the mods are not enabled. The Uluru game looked nice but there was a different problem waiting in the fog: Hiawatha is going to immediately forward settle 4 tiles from Seoul. I also think NW starts are bit OP (that's another challenge I have in mind, by the way).
     
  6. Tiberiu

    Tiberiu Warlord

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    I don't have a strong opinion about map type, any will be interesting in its own way and I can't wait to try out this challange. I would personally lean towards Continents, (Plus or not), because it puts more emphasis on the difference of ability for the turtle ship. I recently had a Korea game and it sucked not being able to explore properly, it delayed meeting everybody for quite a while. On pangaea the fact that you can't enter ocean tiles becomes more or less irrelevant since you can meet everybody well before astronomy. I am sure I will do much better with Babylon regardless of settings, it will be interesting to see if that will be the case.
    Agree on ruins being part of the game, I like them and they make games interesting. It's just that when you wanna test something they can spoil things due to how random they are. It will be interesting to play either way, I like building scouts anyway, haha. Like you said with camping one for when you grow, I like saving a ruin for turn 20 in hopes for faith.
     
  7. raider980

    raider980 Warlord

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    If you really want to get wild you could do a pangea game and a continents game. The two play so differently, continents is quite a bit harder in my experience. Because you run the risk of a runaway AI on the other continent. There's a good chance if Hiawatha is on the other continent he'll have like 50 cities by the time you meet him. Also, I would think Babylon on a continents game would not do as well if Korea is on the other continent. Korea could be the runaway; the AI seems to play Korea much better than Babylon. I've never had Babylon threaten to win any game I've played against them, but Korea is almost always up there close to winning.
     
  8. Nizef

    Nizef Prince

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    The issue of prior knowledge is definitely something we have to consider. One way of getting around it, would be to play several maps with each civ. For example 3 x Korea and 3 x Babylon. That would probably even out any map related issues. However, that is of course six games to play... I am up for it, but I don¨t know about you guys?
     
  9. TMNTurtle

    TMNTurtle Chieftain

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    I have a bit of spare time these upcoming weeks so I'm up for anything, as long as it seems interesting and @RuntyBassoon143 gets what he wants from it.
     
  10. Tiberiu

    Tiberiu Warlord

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    Any news?:)
     
  11. raider980

    raider980 Warlord

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    Not sure if this is still in the works and don't want to hijack your idea @RuntyBassoon143 but I really like this idea; this would give a purpose to playing. I've been messing around with trying to get a map that works and allows both Korea and Babylon to have the same start. And I don't think its possible; unless someone knows of a mod that will allow you to switch players after you start a game.

    Even using 'In Game Editor' you have to start the game as a particular leader and you can't switch so saving the game and then moving units around doesn't work. I tried various pre-set maps such as Mesopotamia, Italy, etc. and while the map shape is the same, the resource and terrain distribution is random so they are different when you start a different game. Also, Mesopotamia is really big and has way more resources than a randomly generated map. Plus the pre-built maps don't wrap east to west so that's different.

    It seems to me that maybe the best way to do this would be to simply start a normal game with standard settings. Then with the second civ, restart until you get a similar looking starting location. It won't be perfect but if a few people generate a map for each civ then it may give a good indication of Korea vs. Babylon. Then we could even share the maps and see if we get similar results.
     
  12. Nizef

    Nizef Prince

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    I have been thinking along the same lines. And I am still up for it.
     
  13. RuntyBassoon143

    RuntyBassoon143 Chieftain

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    Hey guys, sorry I haven't updated this in a while. I wasn't able to play Civ for a bit because of some bug with Steam for Mac, but it looks like that has been resolved. I think I found a way to start from the same location with 2 different civs but I need to make sure it's repeatable. I will test it this weekend and report back.
     
  14. raider980

    raider980 Warlord

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    Oh good, looking forward to it. I just yesterday noticed the Save Map button on the window where you go to save a game, I can't believe I've never seen it before! Is that what you're going to use? It saves the map exactly and then you can start a new game with a different leader and choose that saved map as the map type. It seems to work with IGE too so the units can be moved around.
     
  15. RuntyBassoon143

    RuntyBassoon143 Chieftain

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    Yes exactly. The tricky part is that your position changes because of start bias, but with the rotate start position mod the strongest spot is usually the same. I'm hitting a bug when I reload the map for the second civ which covers every tile with forest.
     
  16. RuntyBassoon143

    RuntyBassoon143 Chieftain

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    EDIT: Map appears to have ruins deleted. Need to investigate.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2020 at 9:21 PM

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