Deity: What am I missing?

[carath63]

I think you should try England or China. What you do to win Deity Domination with Mongolia is not really like what you would do with any other civ.

I haven't tried England at Deity yet. I spent about a month playing with China and hit the same walls with the Cho Ku Nu when they become obsolete.

It's that murky middle period of the game that I haven't quite figured out yet. It's that period when everyone hates you, so it's hard to trade for anything, you are behind in tech because you focused on beelining a military unit, and the front you have to defend from all of those AIs that hate you is much bigger now that you own a couple of their capitals.

 

[beetle]

@carath63, I think you should really check out that @consentient thread that @mbbcam and I have recommended.

My deity dom games all look the same: Maybe I take a cap with CBs and then maybe I take another w/ XBs. Then I am frustrated until Rocket Launchers come online, finally clearing the map w/ Stealth Bombers and XCOM.

 

[carath63]

@carath63, I think you should really check out that @consentient thread that @mbbcam and I have recommended.

My deity dom games all look the same: Maybe I take a cap with CBs and then maybe I take another w/ XBs. Then I am frustrated until Rocket Launchers come online, finally clearing the map w/ Stealth Bombers and XCOM.

Thanks, yes I have been reading through that thread and trying to follow it. I am fine with the early part where you get to your first army and attack the first capital or two. It's when those units get obsolete that I get stuck. Maybe I have to be more patient and pause after two capitals and focus on science until I can get to artillery?

 

[beetle]

@carth63, I think if you ask your question in that thread, that you are more likely to constructive responses. Especially if you play the maps that people have shared and have mutual experiences with. I can't help you because I mostly have the same problems you describe. Maybe I get an early capital or two, but then I always stall out. Most Deity DOM games where I aim to roll the map with Artillery, I end losing them all to GWB. I hardly every get very far before I have AA guns. But at that point, I will have RL ten turns later.

 

[consentient]

I have been at it since July trying to get a domination victory on Deity, with no luck so far.

I'm certainly willing to help you, but there are a lot of resources on these forums, just so you know.

I have used the Mongols for all of the games

Why? They're a good civ for Domination, sure, but there are better, and as others said above, they are not the best for learning how to Dominate. Try Poland/Babylon/Persia/Arabia/England as well.

I put my second city in a good spot, but apparently too close to a psycho civ and they DOW me before I have a chance to build good defenses

What is the build order in these games? If you think you might be irritating a civ by forward settling, send 3 archers and a Spearmen to the city, preferably with promotions from fighting barbs, and go to Construction ASAP for added defense.

In many cases, you might not only be able to repel the attack, but also conquer. For instance, Attila and Ashurbanipal spam their UUs and since they do no damage to units, they can be picked off near your city and a clear path is made to their own.

If I get past the early game, I can pretty consistently get Keshiks by turn 110 or so.

Chivalry by T110 isn't terrible, but try to do it faster. Don't get any unnecessary techs and just beeline it. Grow your cities so they produce maximum science and have a LOT of Chariot Archers ready to be upgraded.

I can usually get one capital finished off by Keshiks before turn 150

I think THIS is the crux of the problem. That is very slow going. You should have 2 or 3 capitals done by T150 as Keshiks are running out of usefulness soon after on Deity. With any other civ, you'd be relying mainly on XBs and Knights, and looking to hit Canons ASAP and then Artillery. Sounds like you are getting bogged down in the city capture part of things. For one thing, pick the shortest route to an AI capital. And if you have to capture cities along the way, raze them unless they have a Wonder you need or are just an excellent city or unless you have to keep it for strategic reasons. You want to hover outside of the city, baiting their units with workers, until the units are not threatening your XBs/Keshiks, then move in and capture the city in 2-3 turns. If the untis you have can't take the city in 2-3 turns, you are behind in the tech curve or taking on an enemy that has excelled along the tech tree and has defenses that are too good.

don't have a lot of friends if I took two capitals

Are you demonising your victims properly? Whenever possible, bribe them to DOW the entire world on the turn before you aim to attack. They will, and they will even sometimes send their troops away to fight in those wars, if they actually like the idea. Then Denounce, then DOW. Then the warmonger penalties will be lower and if you've nurtured a couple of good friendships and always paid your victims to attack those friends, then you can keep them all game.

It's that murky middle period of the game that I haven't quite figured out yet. It's that period when everyone hates you, so it's hard to trade for anything, you are behind in tech because you focused on beelining a military unit, and the front you have to defend from all of those AIs that hate you is much bigger now that you own a couple of their capitals.

Most of the UUs are coming in the Classical or Medieval eras, which still gives you a decent amount of time to focus your tech towards Education, and then either Artillery or Flight. So what I'm saying is that once you've built two armies, your cities should really be grown and nurtured so that you won't be as behind in tech. See also previous comments about doing diplomacy right.

May I suggest that you join in with the Community Challenge series I've just started? We're playing Immortal and Deity maps, interesting ones pre-selected by me, and we're sharing our playthroughs. It might help you learn?

 

[mbbcam]

@consentient -- this is all useful stuff for me, too. I can see a lot of things I haven't been doing in what you write above. But in particular, it is the city capture that I find hard. Perhaps partly because I don't do enough of the preparation that you mention above, but more lack of tactical nous. One or two explanations of the mechanics of attacking a city might be very useful. I've watched numerous videos, but I'm obviously not getting something.

Incidentally, I must have played hundreds of games as England, and never really got anywhere. Which shows I am getting a lot wrong.

 

[consentient]

Are you finding that it stretches to 20 turns because of the number of units that they have in the way, or because you are losing units, or what?

 

[mbbcam]

A combination of both those, I think -- plus a general timidity of approach. Lack of planning is probably also a factor. Obviously, if I knew how to fix the problem, I would!! I will have to think about it more.

 

[aafritz17]

A combination of both those, I think -- plus a general timidity of approach. Lack of planning is probably also a factor. Obviously, if I knew how to fix the problem, I would!! I will have to think about it more.

I reckon I'm not a LOT better than you, but here's a couple of things that have helped me get better (and I think both are mentioned above):

First, learn to use that worker-baiting bit. Don't worry about losing the worker - you'll probably get him back, and more importantly, you'll lose fewer soldiers.

Second, regarding the Range and/or Logistics promotions. THEY ROCK. Find an old @peddroelm domination YouTube. Only have to watch the first 50 turns or so to see what he's doing. Declares war on one of the first city-states he finds and literally doesn't let up firing on it with half a dozen archers (except to let it recover a few health-points). They shoot = experience. They get shot = experience. Monitor how much damage they take, keep in battle as long as possible (ALAP?), Then move 'em back to heal. You can keep them rotating until you've assembled an army of mostly 3-promo soldiers. March then toward your first victim, and then Range or Logistics will come maybe from your first battle. DON'T peace-out with the C/S, you're about to start training a second army!

 

[mbbcam]

I've watched Roger Federer play tennis, and Kiri Te Kanawa sing Mozart, but unfortunately I still can't do either of those.

I first saw @peddroelm's hugely entertaining videos over three years ago, and I've recommended them myself on these forums several times. I'm very familiar with the techniques you mention. But ... theory into practice ... I spent a lot of time studying and writing about Napoleon's early career, and one thing I noticed was that his opponents very soon started to try and imitate his methods. This was consistently a failure because there were some aspects of the theory that they hadn't grasped, in addition to which, practice is harder than theory, and they could never quite make it work like he could.

I am coming to the conclusion that playing this game well is a lot to do with being able to do multiple things at once. Some things, like Diplomacy, are probably much more important than they seem to be, and such things are easy to miss in a video (or an article) because they are not as eye-catching as a large army. It is easy to jump to the conclusion "Ah -- large army = victory". It is not as simple as that.

 

[consentient]

One of the things I like best about Peddro was the pace of his play. Literally 10 or 20x slower than mine, very deliberate and calculating. Maybe try slowing down and going through each thought intentionally, then check things like: -

- Have I checked citizen management for all my cities?
- Have I checked...

and so on, until you are absolutely ready to click Next Turn

I think we all tend to rush so much of the time

 

[mbbcam]

I think you're right. I think I probably need to write myself a checklist of things to do, maybe even a "recipe" for how to conduct the game -- a sort of potted strategy of essential things to keep in mind. Maybe even have it as a sort of flowchart, visualising the multiple strands as a timeline, with the different "Domains" (Production, Science, Diplomacy, Unit position, etc.) all going left to right, one above the other. I'm not suggesting that you don't need flexibility, or an ability to adapt to changing conditions -- far from it -- but I'm clearly getting fixated on too small a number of things and losing sight of the rest. And a strategic plan (what do I need to do now in order to be ready in 20 Turns) is something that I usually forget about.

I still think your Domination Guide is one of the best resources on the forums, but I wonder if it could stand a little amplification of the stuff about Diplomacy. Getting a victim to attack someone else and then attacking them afterwards is something I had simply never thought of. It makes perfect sense, but hadn't crossed my mind.

Cheers!

 

[consentient]

There is much I could expand on...we'll have to see how much time I can find for it. Watch this space.

 

[carath63]

Thanks for the additional comments. I'll take a look at the community challenges.

On a tactical note, I have been playing Poland lately on pangea and gotten to the point where I could take down a capital, but the capital is coastal and they have garrisoned a galleas along with a composite bow, so they are getting three shots, which is enough to take out one of my units every turn. I can lure the composite bowmen out with a worker, but it doesn't work for the galleas. If civs get to galleas, do I need to wait until artillery to reasonably take them out? The cities generally only have a couple of hexes where ranged units can see them, so it is tough to rush in with a bunch of units and take it down quickly to reduce the losses.

 

[beetle]

@carath63, I agree that if you are losing a ranged unit each turn, then your assault is too late.

In another thread @consentient suggests that, after XB loose their utility, wait for Bombers, Tanks, and Paratroopers. That has been working a little better for me. The best I seem to be able to do is one cap w/ CBs, a second with XBs, then a 3rd with veteran XBs or Artillery. Then I have to turtle for a bit. After a pause and Ideologies unlock, then I can take most of the rest with Bombers and Tanks. I am still unlocking Stealth Bombers and Xcom before I take out the last civ, so things are not as fast as I would like, but it is better than my previous Dom runs which needed to wait on Rocket Launchers and Mobile SAMs.

 

[carath63]

@carath63, I agree that if you are losing a ranged unit each turn, then your assault is too late.

In another thread @consentient suggests that, after XB loose their utility, wait for Bombers, Tanks, and Paratroopers. That has been working a little better for me. The best I seem to be able to do is one cap w/ CBs, a second with XBs, then a 3rd with veteran XBs or Artillery. Then I have to turtle for a bit. After a pause and Ideologies unlock, then I can take most of the rest with Bombers and Tanks. I am still unlocking Stealth Bombers and Xcom before I take out the last civ, so things are not as fast as I would like, but it is better than my previous Dom runs which needed to wait on Rocket Launchers and Mobile SAMs.

That sounds like good advice. I have probably watched too many let's plays where the player was able to pretty much run the table with their UU, but the conditions were optimal and prevented the AIs from getting too far ahead. I have to learn to be more patient and break this out into phases. I also have to learn not to be enticed by exorbitant peace offerings, and just keep pushing until I get the capital first.

 

[consentient]

Why don't you guys watch Moriarte's Korea LP where he goes to war with Canons, and then try and emulate it?

Just make a few good cities, grow them and concentrate on science, built some UUs with Armories and have money for Upgrades?

When XBs aren't so effective, move to Canons ASAP. After Education, Beeline Chemistry, then Fertiliser and then Dynamite. This should win in almost all cases.

If you can't win on 95% of maps with Dynamite, you need to review the fundamentals so that you can reach the tech in time. T180 for beginning an Artillery sweep is a good target. Then you should clean the map in 30 turns or less. Rather than worry about what to do when that plan doesn't work, keep practising the fundamentals until you can consistently hit Dynamite at the right time.

If the capital is coastal and has galleases/frigates, leave it until later. Sweep order is also a very important consideration. Necessity > Trading Partners > Geographical order

 

[i_am_the_slime]

Add me to the list of those struggling. In a recent immortal game I had a below average start with Songhai but still managed to clear Atilla and Sejong off my continent with a composite bowman rush by turn 90. But on a continent with no other Civs I had to beeline Astronomy and when I finally met the other Civs I was a severe last place in tech (they were at maybe 45% and I was at 35%). Therefore, I felt I had to continue beelining the top part of the tree (public schools) to get my tech up. By then the artillery rush wasn't an option so I just changed course to a science victory and kept going to Plastics. I did end up winning with science but it wasn't particularly impressive (turn 375).

So maybe some simple questions:
- Is CB rush too frail (difficult)? Or is it because I went Construction before Philosophy (but isn't that the difference between CB rush or XB rush)?
- Is domination possible after going the top of the tech tree (with infantry, great war bombers)? Gatling guns are okay but definitely not artillery
- Is this why people play pangea? The astronomy beeline seemed to hurt.

 

[mbbcam]

I sympathise. I've never won a Domination victory. This is perhaps partly because I get bored after 250 turns and can't be bothered, but mostly I think it is because I find the practice is much more difficult than the theory. Consentient wrote in his guide that Domination is "actually the easiest victory condition when you know how to do it". I deduce from this that I either don't know how to do it, because I have missed something in the guides or the videos I have watched, or I simply can't put the theory into practice. To quote from the post above:

Then you should clean the map in 30 turns or less.

This is an impossible dream for me. True, I suspect that I fall down on a lot of the preparation that has to go along with reaching Artillery in good time (having units to upgrade, the money to upgrade them, roads to enemy territory, and so forth). But for me, capturing the next city is likely to take 30 turns, never mind clearing the map.

I will have a look at the Korea video, which I did not know. Shame there is no sound at the beginning.

On the question of Pangaea versus Continents, it is my impression that Continents gives a slower start, but don't take that as gospel. It is also my impression that some Civs will struggle more to keep up in Tech because they have no Science bonuses, which might be a reason for choosing Tradition and Rationalism. But if you are good at conquest that might not apply. I begin to think that with my lack of ability, Tradition and Rationalism is the only way I can give myself a chance, and even then I don't have a good chance.

To summarise, I suspect the reason why some of us struggle is that we are not getting the "moment-by-moment" decisions right. I think most of us put our cities in roughly the right places and pursue roughly the right Techs and Policies. But there is a cumulative effect in getting a lot of little decisions wrong. It is not enough to beeline an important Tech -- you have to manage a whole set of things so that you arrive at that Tech ready to take advantage of it. Yes, I can arrive at Artillery in reasonable time -- but never with the money to upgrade units, nor with the units to upgrade. I just cannot do this. Alternatively, if I have the units and the money, I will struggle to get to the Tech in time. I've never managed to have the whole package. Even if I did, I suspect my tactical ability would not be good enough to get me far. I have a longstanding ambition / obsession to play a decent game as England, but even with Longbows I've struggled to capture more than one capital.

Heigh-ho. One day. Perhaps. But I suspect that I simply don't have whatever it is that is required to play well. But no doubt I'll keep trying.

 

[carath63]

I am playing Poland now on a Pangaea map, but it looks more like a fractal map with several areas of the content segregated by narrow isthmuses or mountain ranges. The area where I have settled 4 cities has a lot of rough terrain and borders the north and south seas of the map, and is completely surrounded by city states. Beyond the city states are Indonesia to the east (behind an isthmus and a city state), Morocco to the north (behind a city state), and India to the west (behind two city states).

Since I was pretty isolated and there is a lot of rough terrain I decided to wait until artillery to start my attacks. I got there around turn 170, which is pretty good for me, but slower than Moriarte's game. I built a bunch of cannons and trained some of them by picking a fight with a city Suleiman settled late in the game near my capital. (There are also some Zulu cities in that area).

When I got artillery I bribed Morocco to DOW India and they headed for India's northernmost cities. I headed straight west to Delhi which only had open terrain separating us. It took about 5-6 turns to wipe out his army and take down Delhi, and then a few more turns to take out all of his counter-attacking units.

India had taken Copenhagen earlier in the game, and that was directly south of Delhi, so I started to move my army that direction when Shaka and Suleiman declared war on me. Suleiman is too far away to worry about and I have a few frigates to keep him from landing his army on my shores. The Zulus, on the other hand, are south and west of India and brought up a horde of riflemen. I got peace with Ghandi, taking all of his cash and GPT and pulled my army back to Delhi to defend it from the Zulus.

It is now turn 206 and I am still fighting this tide of riflemen. I have about 8 artillery in range of the border and several cavalry and hussars. He isn't a real threat to Delhi, but I can't advance until I whittle this force down, and then I can start razing his cities until I get to his capital. There are about 4 cities along that path.

I am finding it takes at least 4 shots from my artillery to take down one rifleman, so this is really slow going. I have great generals in range, (sometimes he does too, though), and many of them are have 2-3 promotions, but it is slow going. I just finished flight, so I'll be bringing bombers soon and maybe that will speed up the destruction of his army so I can continue my march. He is still using cannons and riflemen, so he's behind me in military tech, but I think this is going to be a slog.

Should riflemen be that hard to take down with artillery, or is this due to Shaka's unique promotions?