[BTS] Deitymania #1: Toku

Lain

King
Joined
Jun 24, 2011
Messages
718
So I decided to start a little series of my own. To progress as a player and maybe give something back to the community after lurking for years and reading most of the great threads this forum has seen.

Making short turnsets and recording them mindfully should also help me to play slower and better as a result. Normally I sort of rush through games after making a plan in the first 50 turns. Leads to careless play and I lose motivation if things don't go my way.

Of my last 10 Deity games I won 6 or 7, even though there are still many weaknesses in my play. For example, if I roll Semi-Isolation I might aswell resign the game. And strangely, I struggle even at Immortal Isolation. So empire building skills seem weak. On the other hand, I feel that I do some stuff well, like Diplo. So naturally, a normal game benefits me more.

Much ado about nothing, lets start with our first game. Random leader, taking first game I roll.

Settings:

Deity
Fractal
Normal Speed
Standard Size
No Huts / Events

Starting position:



After moving warrior:

Spoiler :






Personally, I never think too much about where to settle. Maybe 30 seconds and then just go for it. But I figure it is a good starting point for a thread like this. So far I played the first 60 turns and will stop there for a few days before I continue. Though I hope to post regular updates.

What I did:

Spoiler :


Settle on the southern Dye. +1 Commerce and River, will be nice Buro capital. As Toku I value that early commerce highly. Downside: Until border pop we don't have a 3-tile. But will need to research Hunting-AH anyway so I don't know.



Feel free to cricitize :D



Save attached for shadows, please post in spoiler. Maybe key dates for comparing games? Turn 50, 100, 150, etc... I save the game manually every 10 turns myself.

Quick remark for later saves and stuff: I generally don't reload anything. If I get killed by barbs or make stupid move with my army and lose my stack or lose wonder because I didn't whip it, I accept that. But I reload if I plan to pre-chop a forest and forget to stop my worker in time. Or plan to 3-pop-whip a Settler and miss the turn ;).

Will post my first 50 turns tomorrow. Generally I won't "wait" for advice even though I appreciate it. If I make mistakes I can learn from that afterwards. I know many people read this kind of threads without commenting (like me for years!). So to not lose motivation I will also play myself and be happy with documenting what happens, not expecting feedback to keep me going. Kind of like Kossin did with his daily updates, even though I'm far below his level of course. I still feel I can hold my own and do a decent job in most Deity games.

So I will document what I do, pick up advice and compare games afterwards. But also make my own decisions like with the settle ;). Not because I think I pick the right decisions, but because I believe in making mistakes and learning from that. Though this series might evolve in different directions, who knows.

Any kind of participation is highly appreciated.
 

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T0, after the warrior move :
Spoiler :
I'd probably SIP or settle 1S if I feel lucky.
Decent chances there's a (food) resource hidden in the fog somewhere 2W of the starting location. Don't wanna miss on food.

Too bad the warrior can't really reveal anything informative.


Lain said:
But I reload if I plan to pre-chop a forest and forget to stop my worker in time.
If you get BULL on top of BUG (a simple .dll), then your workers will pre-chop instead of chopping. They stop on the turn before the last.
If you do, you'd better keep in store the .dll file that BULL replaces as well.
 
Nice, Toku with no Agri resource :p

If I can find some time I will play this one along with you. I also don't spend THAT much time on the initial settling...looking forward to see your progress.
 
I would also, consider moving the settler 1S, on the dyes. The extra commerce is much needed. I also value settling on turn 0, for a fast worker

1S also keeps the marble in ring 3, which the borders will easily expand to in time for when marble might be useful. Was thinking about oracle.. but considering the starting techs, and the need for hunting AH tech.. on deity might make oracle really hard. But still, you might have use for the marble.. And in my experience.. civ 4 is a game of.. "what if" that builds on each other. :)

Anyways interesting series! I will definitely follow, and I might play alongside :)
 
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My first 50 turns:

Spoiler :


So I moved and settled on the southern Dye. Missed the dry corn by doing so of course. Oh well. Of course I should have settled on the other Dye, looking at this :D But no problem, we can still manage this... right?



Research: Hunting-AH-Mining... put 2 turns into Pottery, but changed my mind and went BW first instead (no reload :D). Grow to Size 3 working Pigs, riverside Mine and some micro between Dye and Forest.

This will be my 2nd City claiming Horses. Already lost one warrior foolishly, but I feel comfortable enough with AGG warriors until then. The place is easy to fogbust aswell.





Darius ruined 2 cities with his settle, two turns before I would have gotten Horse-Pig-City. Guess I could have got it if I started with Settler at Size 2. But I really needed a warrior. Meh. Also ruined the Corn settlement. Grr. Think we can agree he has to go soon.



Osaka starting on Worker until Horses are hooked up, then build/chop two Chariots, grow to size 2 working Horses, then whip a worker.
Capital got out another warrior at Size 3, now Worker for putting a cottage on the Dye and then chop another settler I think.
First worker is hooking up Horses and will chop forest in Osaka, then help in capital (double-chop settler?)

Will still settle the Copper in the west. Food only in 2nd ring, But I'm confident I can claim it from Darius mid-game, eventually I will have 3 cities pressing culturally. Great Library in Capital I think. Yeah, no way he can keep that.

I want the copper, because:

(1) Darius will settle there otherwise, I want to block him.
(2) I need something else than Chariots if someone decides to attack me. Also for taking possible Barb cities.



As soon as possible I do this:



Land so far:



Few words on situation: If I don't meet anyone else, just two opponents. Means self-teching Alpha becomes interesting. I will need Iron Working, Monarchy and things like that. Plan is to build Great Library though.

Basically Pigs is the only source of food in the whole empire for now. Two warriors died protecting it. That's not really good, but City at Size 1 working Copper or Horses is not that bad. Though normally I only want one of those. Copper City will contribute after claiming the corn and help grow some cottages for the Capital. City 4 will go to the Rice in the south. I suspect Giggles in the east somewhere. Surely I can get at least 6 cities though, depending.

Capital:



Osaka: Will get border pop thanks to religion! Even before Darius. Next to me is his Holy City, but... Jewish Holy City. And he is Hindu, so no culture bonus. Phew.



Will play up to Turn 75 next I think.

 
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Ok, its turn 107 (sorry, I get so easily caught up in the game.)

Fun game, and I think the game is in a winnable position.. but this is usually where I start to "autoplay" and just fumble away my games.

Spoiler :


Settled 1S and found food!!! a unwet corn! Which imo made this start playable as toku :D

Teched Ag -> pottary - > mining -> BW.
Then I saw copper I'm my 3 ring.

Settled a crappy 2 city.. which actually did not include copper because I wanted the city to have the unwet rice with a boarder pop.. so I had to wait for my second border pop in the capitol to connect copper! A huge risk! Got a late copper online, which made me almost loose to a barb invasion consisting of 1 archer and 1 warrior :rolleyes:

Then Darius got really cozy.. and settled Susa, right on my borders. I had recently connected copper.. so I said, ok.. lets go try for an Axe rush! ;)
I used the "how many spypoints does it take to sabotage production trick" and he had something like 400 points.. made me think that he produced a settler.. not a second archer in Susa.

Knowing that I attached only with 3 axes. And hm.. I got really lucky.. and managed to take Susa with only 3 axe's. The luck and timing of is was extreme because it also included a weird sandwich with 2 of his archers on settler guard duty.

Then later on I got his capitol with 5 axes against 3 archers. I risked it, because he revolted into slavery the turn before. Got his capitol, where he had built Stonehenge! :D:eek:

This axe rush was really paying of! I then went for his forth settle, while teching alpha. Got the city and traded AH, archery, masonry and mysticism for peace.

While Darius was now stuck on 1 city. I was now going 5 city strong and tech leader! Got a library in capitol and a GS for a academy. Important to beat the priest/merchant coming from Stonehenge and ToA (which I originally built for failgold, but finished to get some cultural pressure, since Darius had a holy city close by)

The diplo situation was also really good.

Giggle started a war against vicy, and shaka was plotting or at war with an unmeat Ai.. about turn 80 he DoW'ed Darius and captured all his cultural cities in the area around his capitol.. so now my super cultural city (darius ex capitol) will probably flip Shaka's cities :eek:

This start resulted in one of the best/strangest starts I ever had on Diety.. and now I have to think about where to take this game... Any tips?


Civ4ScreenShot0000.JPG
Civ4ScreenShot0001.JPG

Tech situation:
Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG



edit. upload images fix and attached the save!
 

Attachments

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I get the following error when I try to access the three screen shots in the previous post:

You do not have permission to view media within this album.
 
@Lain:

Spoiler :

I don't see any BIG problems with your play so far. Solid moves. In my game Darius also got the Pig city before me, usually there's no way of beating it to its third city. I definitely would have founded it with Pigs in the first ring though if it had been possible (in contrast to your planned city location there). Food in the first ring is just so important especially if you have Bronze Working already. I'm also not sure what you need the chopped Chariots for, maybe barbs are a bigger pain in your game than in mine.

With Toku and on this map, commerce is always going to be a bottleneck. Which is why I didn't tech Bronze Working (it's expensive) and went for Pottery - Writing - Maths instead, planning a late but still early enough Axe/Swords + Catapult rush (trading Maths for Bronze/Iron Working). Of course, that presumes that I have Copper or Iron somewhere...I'm not sure my plan is much better than yours here.

With that said, you didn't state where you want to go with that game. Are you planning to get 5-6 cities (should be possible here if you make a blocking city in the south) and go for a later breakout? At which tech will you attack Darius?
 
2000 BC :

Spoiler :
Settled 1S for the extra commerce.
Grew capital to 3 before starting on settler. Then to 4 before starting on worker (delays maintenance, not enough to settle close by). Now going Settler --> Settler at size 4 with Pottery back up (or maybe will whip from size 5 ~~ will definitely whip settler for city 4, growing on axes).
Osaka grows to size 2 on rice, starts worker, gets a chop, whips 1 pop.
--> 3 workers out. 4 warriors.
Couldn't claim the pigs to the NW, nor any relevant resource to the SW. Copper revealed due West.
While the Eastern peninsula is very nice (settle the island !), it does require IW to develop. So... I'm contemplating an Axeman invasion on either the English or, preferably, the Persian. Need more scouting. Closest English city is on a hill.

b03nCJT.jpg

Maybe axe rush city is actually 1S of the sign. Kyoto claims the forest NE on the next turn.
Probably more AIs to meet out there ? Yes ? Couldn't delve very far to the West.

City 2 isn't very strong (dry rice...) but :
- it still has some amount of food (...is still rice)
- very close = quickly set up (travel time is 1 turn provided 1 road)
- can help develop the capital's commerce tiles

The extra dyes will be farmed. Better develop a cottage on a more long term tile.
 
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BornInCantaloup, Nice start!

Spoiler :

I went pottary instead of AH, for granaries and cottages.. But in retrospect.. AH probably gives a faster start for an Axe rush. Espesially considering the cap already have a 2f2c fresh water to work while growing. Good luck!


Lain: what is your gameplan?
 
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Thanks,
AH
Spoiler :
gives you more production, so a faster expansion. From more cities, you get in turn some more production.
Here, it doesn't seem the cities are strong enough to support an early REx, though. I think one needs to be cautious to maintain a decent tech pace and reach Pottery/Writing in an acceptable timing.
 

I see this term being used around the forum, but I don't know what it means. Care to elaborate? :)

Spoiler :
I agree on the AH tech for a faster settling and a Axe rush. For my game pottery seemed like a better tech, to get some cottages going and building a granary while I waited for BW. But in retrospect.. I'm not so sure.. maybe AH was better for economy as well :)
 
Up to Turn 100 (Update part 1):

Spoiler :


My general plan is to play peaceful, settle at least 6 cities and probably attack with Cannons+anything. Maybe lib Astro and get boost from other continent if there is one. More scouting is needed. I will talk about my final plan then. I peaked at some of your games after reaching Turn 100. Seems I won't play as aggressive as some of you ;). Should make for interesting comparison of results later though.

So I settled the Copper city, hoping to one day get control over the Corn to make it more useful. Then my Chariot discovers another Civ. I even chopped a Chariot as soon as possible for Barb defense, but also for much needed scouting.



Barbs have been modest so far. I suspect this archer from Gilgamesh had a lot to do with that. Monster.



I met Vicky on Turn 61. This was crucial, because now I will have at least one more trading partner and going Aesthetics (Agriculture first though) is way more attractive. She is in a different religion too, so game just changed a lot.



I roaded into Darius as soon as possible for some much needed commerce, but what's the point if that moron doesn't connect his cities?



Barb city. Seems to me if I settle the Rice south of capital I will have more land to settle in the east. Seems nobody is there. Except Gilga's super archer.



I get nervous because if Vicky settles there first I might not recover from that, so chop a beloved forest saved for Great Library :(



Got the city, now sitting back until I can research Aesthetics. Capital will start on GS soon. I would have liked to get the first one from another city, but not like I have much choice if I want to be in time. Hmm. Had to settle Satsuma (Rice) earlier for that, but was too worried about blocking land and claiming strategic resources. Also Gilga's archer photobombing again.



Might be his end now though :(



:( :(



Will whip this. In retrospect, I should have concentrated on growing/building stuff in the capital and use other cities to get the settler, but it would have been too slow maybe.



Other cities:

Satsuma, this will be my GP-Farm long term. Or short term, if Great Library should fail.



Osaka, Library just for culture. I want the Corn. And Granary won't do me much good here at Pop 2.



Tokyo: Settler for a city East of capital, just to help with cottages while Capital grows GS. It will be net-gain because of low maintenance.



Met Shaka Turn 78, very important. Without scouting I wouldn't know about him until Astro possibly (closed borders). Of course he is plotting already.



Going for Aesthetics now with Library being up. Capital at size 4 working Pigs+Dye cottage+2 scientists. The GS should be finished just when Literature comes in so I can work mines for Great Library.



Gilga declares on Vicky first. And takes a city. If Shaka backstabs him now this might be bad :/.



Finally Hindu spread to me. Well, I will have to convert to something for running Pacifism. With the shape of the land I should be able to defend against Vicky if things get bad. A lot of it depends on Gilgamesh staying alive though. He will be an important crap-magnet.



Exactly what I was afraid of happened:



Got Alpha from Darius for Aesthetics.



Some trades:

How does "trading with worst enemy" work exactly? I always thought that if you trade "unfairly" (gift techs for example) you get bigger -diplo than for fair trades. Or doesn't that matter at all? Anyway, that's why I took small stuff from Gilga (worst enemy of Vicky+Shaka), to have a fair trade and avoid diplo backlash.



Shaka won't trade techs at cautious. I gift Alpha to him for relations.



And this for relations.





Going to build some Swords and take barb city. Will get me to 6 cities. And I can settle at least 3 more easily. Key is to stay in the teching game though, that is a bigger concern with low commerce.

Vicky going for Barb city, I close borders with her.



Where I can expand:



Literature and GS finish same turn. Time to chop that thing out. Sadly no Math. But I can't wait, look at Darius' research.



Had to close borders with Darius too so he doesn't take barb city. But he stays at pleased because of those pigs I have been delivering him for free for 60 turns now.



Yay, free +Diplo. He took a city from Zulu and made peace with Vicky. Seems he could survive? But I'm thinking of sending a small army to help him against Zulu (just put 10 Axes or so into a city and defend for him). If Gilgamesh falls, that might snowball into huge problems.



I save the GS for Philo bulb, will research Drama for that. Parthenon gave me ~150 Failgold and I should be able to reserch it quickly. Then for CoL via Priesthood I think. Hope someone will trade me Currency, I can't research it myself (or I don't want to). Maybe Darius at Friendly.


 
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Part 2 (too many images..)

Spoiler :


Cities:

Capital: I have 4 workers there, will have mines next turn, even sacrificing the pigs until that thing is built.



Osaka being surprisingly useful.



Tokyo helping with cottage, growing a bit and switching to production after Capital takes its tiles back (army for Gilga-help?)



Satsuma: same as Tokyo, some swords to take Barb city, then Axes to help Gilga.



Kagoshima, the latest acquisition. Growing cottages.



Tech:



Will I get the Great Library against Darius (who has Marble too)?
Will I be first to Philo?
Will Gilgamesh survive?

Update tomorrow :D

 
@Lain: A lot of solid moves again! I especially like the diplomacy. More in detail...

Spoiler :

I wouldn't have settled the Copper city without plans for an Axe-rush or Axes/Catapults. You had Chariots against barbs and diplomacy against AIs. Using the Settler for the blocking city in the south would have saved you population and production from the capital.

Building a Library in a city (Osaka) to get something in the third ring will never work against a Deity AI, they get far too much culture. A lot of the time, don't bother to fight for culture on that level unless you have it in first ring.

Don't forget you can also chop trees outside of a city's BFC, they just don't give as many hammers (useful for finishing Great Library on time).

Axes to help Gilga would come far too late, plus you would need to declare on Shaka for that to work. The only way to help him is to bribe Shaka off him with a tech, I hope you have a scouting unit over there to see whether Gilga is in danger of vassaling or not.
 
Short update this time, only played 25 turns (Turn 100 -> Turn 125), because this is a crucial time period. Will also try to respond to your comments, @georgjorge

Spoiler :


First things first: Failgold from Parthenon and selling Literature for 200 Gold or so lets me research Drama for Philo bulb. I still need Meditation and Math for that. It hurts but I guess I will trade Drama to get Math at least. Self-tech Meditation.



Great Library is built, bit late but oh well. I am 99% sure there is another continent with the remaining 2 Civs. Seems they won't be a problem though.



Few words about me settling the Copper site: I had chariots against Barbs, but spears would have been a problem. I can't take barb cities with Chariots either and I didn't know I had Iron. And while Diplo helps of course, Darius can still start plotting at 1500 BC and then it's game over without copper. Also by settling there I cut him off a bit and he will stay at 6 cities the rest of the game now.

Also Copper is very valuable for trading, so all in all that's why I decided to settle the Copper site. Though I agree that it slowed me down a lot (basically with 3 cities, I only had 1x Pigs as food in my whole empire... that is pretty bad). And that kind of slow start with Toku is something that could lose you the game. But I think I managed to stabilize my position for now. Will see about long-term problems though. I think I have blown the window for Cuirassiers already because of the slow start, but with cannons you can :D.



Getting ready to take barb city, it is actually quite nice.



Traded Drama to most advanced Civ so hopefully it won't be traded and bulbed Philo. Very late too. I should have Civil Service about now :(. Note that Victoria shapes up to be the biggest problem in this game already.



I was already contemplating adopting a religion for Pacifism, then this makes my decision a lot easier:



Solving Shaka problem and hopefully keeping him from destroying Gilgamesh in the future (they are pleased now), having made peace just this turn by themselves.



Important trade, having put one turn of research into Calendar.



Taking Barb city and selling ressources I don't need for money.





Getting Shaka to pleased via religion (and because of +fair trade from gifting Alpha) I can do this. Everyone else already has those techs :).



I could trade Metal Casting for Monarchy, but I see no reason for that. Possible -Diplo with Victoria (Gilga = worst enemy) and I don't want to hit trade limit. Only benefit from Monarchy would be adopting Gilga's favourite Civic. Will keep that in mind, but I can pick up Monarchy any time I want. I did Literature for Monotheism a bit later though, now that will be more useful eventually.



I refuse this. Bye bye pleased Shaka :(. It was nice while it lasted. I thought AI won't demand monopoly tech??



Picked up 290 Gold from Darius for Drama.

2nd GS of the game, finally an Academy in my capital. Also some failgold from Mausouleum of Mausolala



This one is also long overdue. My research path by the way: Drama-Meditation-Priesthood-Code of Laws-Civil Service. Now I will settle everything and have 9 cities in a few turns. Already producing 3 settlers.



Empire:



Techs:



Capital: I really don't want the National Epic here but short-term it is better, I can run two scientists at happy cap so basically it will be a total of 5 scientists with Pacifism and National Epic. None of my other cities can beat that in the next 50 turns at least. And that's all that matters I think.



Osaka: not giving up the culture fight. Yes, Corn is in 3rd ring here, but other cities are also applying cultural pressure. Not sure how that works, but I will get my corn eventually :). Maybe. I hope. Building Trireme to protect my first seafood at new settlement. Should have done this earlier, now there will be a few turns without clam.



Tokyo: grew some cottages and now just useful for Settler-Worker pretty much. Not the best 3rd city ever.



Satsuma: I said something about GP farm in the last update, but forget that. Heroic Epic I think.



Kagoshima: growing some cottages, not much else to say.



Magyar (barb city): Globe Theatre I think.



The culture battle I am hoping to win. I was down to 21% culture at one point, but we are getting there. In 1000 years maybe.



The biggest questionmark this game might be this one though. She hates Gilgamesh even more than me. Hope she declares on Gilga, then I bribe Shaka on her and maybe we can cut down on her city count a bit. I could defend myself with Samurai if needed. Religion switch + tech gift for 10-turn-peace-beg is also viable if things become bad.



Apparently the other continent consists of 1 Master + 1 Vassal. (Please no jokes about my BPT :()




 
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Turn 125 -> 150. Really trying to take it slowly. Usually I'm done with a game after a few hours, not this one though. I've played some more turns though, saving material for next update with busy days ahead.

Spoiler :


Finally settling my land. Barb city spawned as I hoped, now I can unlock the Heroic Epic. Hm, maybe there is actually something on that island, not just some tiles. Exploring is not my strong suit, I'm already lacking for production so that seemed a luxury.



Empire taking shape. After Civil Service I research Compass and Optics, trading for Machinery. Waiting for GS preparing to lib Astro. No early warfare this time. Cannons it shall be most likely.





Just to get her to Cautious, Annoyed is too dangerous. And she would most likely get it next turn with her tech lead.





Tech situation after researching Optics. Now self-tech Paper and double bulb Education.



More land to settle. But really, early on it's not even worth it. With Astro though, things change.



Being too greedy and losing a worker :(



Then the inevitable happens. I assume she is going for Gilga.



But no problem. He should be able to hold out a bit. Or maybe not...



What to do? Operation "Save the Giggles" begins now.





Because right now he is pretty much toast.



I assume she will want Canterbury back.



My empire:



My plan: Lib Astro, find the other two guys, turn off research until Oxford is up (trading Education and Lib for Nationalism/Gunpowder/Printing Press, then beeline Steel/Military Science and take down England in a 3v1 war with Giggles and Shaka as allies. After that take the other continent, maybe Darius, and win Diplo. Or go for Domination if I'm not lazy. Everything goes a bit sloow in this game. Oxford not before 1100 AD probably... but it's okay, with Cannons I can go against anything she will have by then. I assume (hope) to meet not worse stuff than Redcoats though.

Tech:





Fun teaser for next turnset :):

Spoiler :






 
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Hmm, gifting Warriors for free upgrades from an AI is a clever thing! Hope it works.

That said, I see your research as somewhat of a problem this game:

First, your tech rate is not really high enough, as you noticed by getting Civil Service that late. You seem to be doing fine with Great People Generation, but I suspect that your "natural" beakers per turn are low because you spent a lot of resources on making your Bureau capital also your medium-term Great People farm with Great Library and National Epic. That's a lot of turns not working cottages there (I know you have helper cities but they don't have an Academy) and not growing to happy cap fast enough.

Second, I'm confused by your tech path. If you want Cannons I advise to beeline them. Starting war 20 or 30 turns faster is better than meeting the other continent earlier, and might be the difference between facing Redcoats or Machine Guns. That means taking Steel or Chemistry instead of Astronomy. You should also be able to get things like Compass in trade, you only need it to bulb Liberalism if you go for Steel (don't research Machinery first or you will bulb Printing Press instead). My tech path would have been Civil Service - Paper - Education (bulbed) - Gunpowder and then depending on how fast AIs are either Lib Chemistry right there (bulbing Liberalism) or tech it the hard way and try to Lib Steel.

Oxford is questionable - I and some others nowadays hardly build it in non-space games. It's a lot of hammers that could be many units, and if your research ends at Rifling or Railroad it may not be worth it. If you have Stone and lots of spare hammers while you reach your military tech, why not...but I think the most important research is the research done before Oxford will be up.

Sorry if that is too much criticism, I like the diplo and expansion in your game a lot!
 
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