[BTS] Deitymania #1: Toku

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Since you plan on a long game, may I suggest Rocketry and Fission. You will want to get Fission first and build the Manhattan Project while beelining Rocketry through Artillery.

Build numerous Tactical Nukes and some IBCMs. The Tactical Nuke has a range of 4, which may seem too short to get to the next city immediately, but the Nuke area of effect is the center plot plus the eight adjacent tiles, making the effective range of the Tactical Nuke 5. This (5) is happily the typical distance apart the AI settles his cities. If the next city is 5 plots away, but too close to diagonal, you won't be able to use Tactical Nukes. The easy way around this is using ICBMs. Another is using a Great Artist to immediately get the launch city out of disorder and use a bunch workers to build a fort closer to the target city in 1 turn.

Two Tactical Nukes/ICBMs hitting the same enemy city will nearly wipe out all defenders, unless it has a fallout shelter.

Ideally, your opponent will not have SDI, but even if he does, you will only need to build 60% more Tactical Nukes to counter the losses due to SDI.

 

[Imploding]

@BornInCantaloup Thx for great in depth answer! Never thought about expanding in that way... Feel I always have to maintain a descent tech pace for trades and bribes to stay relevant. Will try to implement some of this mecanics into my diety tries

@Sun Tzu Wu: good good! Will hopefully try to finish some of these games (also the NC roman game you gave advice!), when I get some time.. atm "none Civ 4 activities" aka real life is taking up to much time

 

[Lain]

I still have all the saves. Not 500 AD, but 250 AD and then 800 AD I think. Will upload after the game is done I think, first going to play through this. Most of the analysis will come after that, looking back at what happened (or went wrong, especially if I lose).

Here is Turn 150 -> 200 in many details, first to Turn 175 in this post.

Spoiler :

I am the first to meet Sury, he is a bit behind. I wait with trading until I know what is going on there.



Tech situation while I research Lib. Not much time for tricks.



Victoria is about to unleash this on Gilgamesh.



I was hoping for a bit more time before declaration, but she attacks when my first warrior arrives. At least he bribes Shaka on her, too. I would have done it myself otherwise.



Libbing Astro and ready to settle 3 more cities on that island. (I settled 1N of there)



Found Stone on the island, which will speed up Oxford a bit



Meanwhile, the battle started. She takes out his iron with knights. I hook up mine immediately and gift it to him on the same turn.



The AI-turn-order is a bit unlucky. Victoria moves after me and only then Gilga makes his move. So he can't upgrade a new warrior before she attacks. However, this might be beneficial later, because I can shadow his stack.

Gilga: moves stack
Me: follow his stack

-> no window inbetween for Victoria to snipe my units.



Shaka pulls himself out of the war via AP ........ Gilga voted Yes. That idiot isn't worth saving really.



So, what are my warriors doing in the war? Some impressions:





He mopped up some Grenadiers with Horse Archers. I can buy peace now with Lib+money, before that it wasn't possible.

Then she almost takes the city.





I buy peace immediately. So I choose to believe my guys saved the city, enabled him to take out some units and allowed me to buy peace because she took some losses (?). If that city fell, she would never take peace (I only had Lib I could give) and he would have capitulated instantly probably (13 vs 6 cities, 50% higher score)



I trade Education and Lib for things like Nationalism, Engineering, Music and Gunpowder. Found the last guy way too late, but he doesn't have much.



Empire at Turn 175. 12 cities. All cities are small. But I got all infrastructure I wanted and now I will grow all cities, no more whipping until Steel.



Capital finishes Oxford in Golden Age.



Tech situation Turn 175



Some impressions of infrastructure I wanted. I didn't finish the Courthouse though and didn't build any, don't know why I started it, just because I grow the city anyway I guess. Placeholder.

 

[Lain]

Turn 175 -> 200

Spoiler :

Research looks a bit more reasonable in Golden Age, Oxford almost finished. Then wealth everywhere and research at 100% until I have Steel. Still sloow.



I still was able to trade for some things.





With these Civics I will lose or win now I suppose . Target is still England.



Growing cities for heavy whipping after Steel is in.



Hoping to recruit decent help when declaring on Victoria. Sury, Shaka and Gilga should all be in. Darius being useless as always.



Then Shaka goes into full madness and declares on Gilga, I stop him immediately.





Due to being Friendly, I can trade for this quasi-monopoly-tech (he hates Darius and Vicky, the tech leaders, so he won't trade it around and the other guys can't give him anything he doesn't have).





Tech situation after I get Steel. Not looking too bad now?



Trying to convert Sury to Hindu so I can bribe him too and isolate Victoria more.



After getting Steel I tech Rifling while moderately whipping Cannons. Tech situation after reaching Rifling:



My army so far:



And I have to take out this in the beginning: 8 Redcoats, 20 Grenadiers, 5 Knights, 2 Trebs and 1 Great Prophet. Nothing that can't be solved with 25 Cannons, I think? Shaka is plotting. I wonder on who (=famous last words?)



Declaration soon. If I get Vicky, I should have a good shot at winning the game. I will be score leader after that. Hoping for support from my allies.

Whole Diplo and Game was set-up for this upcoming war. I prevented her getting any vassals and now we will see what happens

Question: Let her stack move into my territory and attack it there, or declare and move my stack on the jungle hill? She doesn't have cannons. She will attack and lose everything, no?

@Sun Tzu Wu: I will try to get by without nukes unless I absolutely have to, just because I feel the most satisfying wins are the ones without using nukes. AI can't deal with them properly. But it's an option of course. I will keep your comment on the screenshots in mind, these were done already before reading that. Will try to remember that many people use small screens while browsing on here

 

[georgjorge]

Jungle Hill seems fine, maybe - don't know the territory - get Darius to close borders with her to prevent a sneak attack from Coventry onto your other cities. Make some Cavalries as well, because right now you have no unit with good odds against Grenadiers attacking you out in the open. Plus she might get to Infantry and Cavalry are a lot better than Rifles against those.

Nice that Gilga likes you so much (as he should), trading with him for Corporation will be a nice boost.

I still would have done Caste + workshops instead of whipping in your situation, but I hope you will win the war this way!

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Courthouses are more useful than many players may think, especially when one has many cities with resultant high maintenance. After a Granary, a Courthouse is the next building I build in a city. A reduction of ~5 Wpt (gpt) in city maintenance every turn is a huge economic boost, especially when all distant cities have a Courthouse. It makes it much easier to research faster.

Continue using wonder fail wealth (gold), if you have the resource multiplier (nothing can beat it, if you get good timing of wonder builds by the AIs; building wealth is only half as good).

 

[Lain]

I totally missed to get myself some Cavalry. Would have been better. But well, I traded the Horses away for important happy resources and later I lost them to Darius (culture). Yeah, that culture battle went really well

Courthouses are somewhat underrated sometimes and I am also guilty of that, just in that particular situation Wealth was more useful for the short-term build up and war preparations (maintaining 100% research to get where I needed to go and build some reserves for the inevitable 50% culture slider I will need). Otherwise, I would of course prefer failgold if I have the ressource . I got quite a bit earlier on, enabling me to keep up somewhat in research at a critical point of the game.

Teaser for the upcoming war . She has Statue of Zeus, too. But we are ready for pain.

Spoiler :

Update tomorrow

 

[Lain]

War vs Victoria

Spoiler :

Turn 201 I take a deep breath and start the war which will most likely decide the game one way or another.



I don't bribe anyone immediately. Zulu is plotting anyway (I hope on her) and I want to eliminate her stack before bribing in Gilga. Or she might capitulate him and the whole plan backfires. She got Cannons the turn before I declared, so I decide to let her stack move into my territory. Workers have been busy with clearing all the jungle in the vicinity to make defending easier for me.



10 Cannons and sweep up later, it looks like this:



Now it's time for Gilga to do something useful and cause some distraction. I cash in on my Military Tradition monopoly, too.





Then Shaka declares on Darius. I immediately redirect his attention.





Meanwhile, culture battle going really well. I had 45% culture on the corn at one point though



I moved my stack into her territory. She got Infantry already. First battle is Nottingham. Many cannons died to weaken her defenders:



Shaka takes a city on the other side aswell. I will send a scout to keep track of the progress over there.



Again some heavy losses, but we take Coventry with some help from Gilga.



My "scout" reveals few defenders in Warwick. Going to attack there first, then go for London. That battle will probably decide the outcome of the war.



Gilga moving to London with his... big stack.



London is heavily defended. This will be painful.



But we manage to do this, losing many cannons.





Healing up and going for York next. Gilga, the coward, already bought peace.



This will be rather painful aswell.



Shaka made peace, giving back the city he conquered ... leaving my scout-worker stranded in enemy territory. I delete him. Now we are on our own. Khmer is plotting on Sitting Bull I suppose. He wouldn't bribe for either party before, being cautious with me and annoyed towards Victoria (even though they shared religion)



After taking York, the resistance is pretty much broken. I keep taking city after city, using snowball effect from whipping my new cities into the ground. I also captured the Kremlin from her.





I eventually capture the Statue of Zeus and the Mausoleum of Mausallos aswell. I start worrying about peace-vassal at this point since she won't capitulate due to my heavy losses (most likely). Khmer bribes Shaka on Sitting Bull and Shaka starts a Holy War against him. That will keep everyone busy for a few turns.



However, even with 21 vs 3 cities, she refuses to capitulate to me.



Well, be that way. I make peace (not even getting an expensive tech) and focus on reaching Assembly Line, starting a Golden Age and consolidating my empire. Darius will be next, since he tries for culture. Infantry+Artillery I think. After that, Gilgamesh and Shaka with Tanks. That is the plan.

My losses in this war:

Spoiler :

71 Cannons and 17 Rifles. Taking 70 Infantry with me among 19 Grenadiers, 28 Cannons, some Redcoats and a few Knights, too. The war raged on for 43 turns.

 

[georgjorge]

Congrats on winning that war! Tough nut. Seems like you didn't get counterattacked in the field, or it didn't matter because of numbers?

Your plan looks solid, but I wonder if you may be a bit late. I don't know how advanced the other AI are, but in general they are often able to win either Culture or Space around or shortly after 1800. Khmer look like they could pull it off here. If Artillery takes too long to research, with production from 21 cities Cannons + Infantry are perfectly fine against someone like Darius. Probably also against Gilga afterwards, maybe even against Shaka. And you should be able to start wars while still battling down the remains of the previous enemy to save time. Are you going to draft Infantry heavily?

 

[Lain]

I took some hits in the open field, but after destroying her SoD I think most of her units were city-turtlers. Then there were Shaka and Gilgamesh. It mostly went really smooth, moving from city to city.

This is the save for Turn 250. I don't think the Khmer can win culture early enough, he has too few religions in his cities. And pretty much all wonders are on our continent. Can always raze his coastal capital if it is necessary. I am building Factories now. Some heavy unhappiness from whipping in the cities, so I need a little break. Not sure about my Civics. Maybe just Slavery until the end. With Kremlin+Factories+Shale Plant I can 2-pop-whip Artillery/Infantry/Tanks with nice overflow. Cities might not be ready for Draft-Anger.

Assembly Line, now Communism for State Property, lay down some workshops (don't need the Towns in English land), then Physics (maybe trade?) -> Artillery. Traded for Railroads from Shaka (gave him Assembly Line). After that war I am just a bit tired from Cannons vs Infantry, even though Darius should be a pushover. Have to make my way to Tanks aswell, taking the whole continent with 1-movers might prove too slow.

I hope to win around 1825 AD maybe. Tech situation doesn't look too bad. Darius (and Gilga?) are going culture, Shaka is not a big techer and everyone is getting dragged into war. Gilga declared on Vicky and started the next Holy War. English Civilization will probably vanish from the map in a few turns.

So I don't expect much resistance. Nobody is going to space any time soon.

Tech:

Spoiler :

Empire:

Spoiler :

Fun game. At one point 5 Civs had almost the same score. Some work to be done, but I think this should be a win.

 

[Lain]

Turn 250 until the end.

Spoiler :

After I made peace with Victoria to consolidate my empire, the other guys started a Holy War and wiped her out entirely (Vassal states are on of course, but they just took the remaining 3 cities in a few turns).



I researched: Assembly Line -> Communism -> Physics -> Artillery. Built Factories in a 12-turn-golden-age and moved some troops around, preparing for Darius. He has Artillery, so I didn't want to bother with Rifles and Cannons. Here is the tech situation after reaching Physics. Nothing to be scared of. Darius and Gilga are going for culture, Shaka is Shaka and I doubt Khmer can do anything substantial either.



Khmer actually does something, declaring on Darius and taking a city on his own continent (Darius invaded and took one from Sitting Bull in the earlier Holy War I guess). I buy peace to avoid any complications.



Funny: Since Khmer took the Persian City adjacent to Sitting Bull's last remaining one, he loses more than 50% of his land due to Master culture and breaks free from Khmer (at least I think this is what happened?).



With some delay, I am ready to take on Darius, the most advanced Civ in the game, but notoriously weak. 40 or so turns until he wins culture though.



As usual, I get myself some help from Shaka. At least he won't be bribed on me this way. Us becoming Friendly again is a bonus aswell.



Darius is not putting up much of a resistance. I have another stack attacking in the west, too. Have to take his capital at least to make sure culture won't be an issue. He would have capitulated after 2 cities fell.



Here we go. I bought Shaka off aswell, just so he wouldn't take a city and complicate things. I am whipping all my cities for the troops by the way. Slavery (with Kremlin), Bureucracy (Oxford-Capital), State Property and Theocracy. No Police State sadly. But I could 2-pop-whip Infantry and Artillery with decent overflow. Also some upgrades on veterans from the English war.



Gilga is next. I attack this city on the first turn. His stack is sitting in his capital. So I spare one unit in the city, hoping he moves his stack there to reinforce it. Which he does.





Five turns later Gilga has enough and capitulates. I captured some of the dangerous culture cities of his. Meanwhile I teched my way to Tanks, I will whip 50 or so and roll over Shaka. He doesn't have any mentionable stacks, having wasted everything in some of the previous wars presumably.





Have to wait some turns since I begged 1 Gold for peace from Shaka to avoid bribing or peace-vassal. His most dangerous SoD looks like this:



I declared with this sitting on his borders. I will take his stacks with Artillery and then move to the capital with a "slow" stack and split up tanks to get all the fringe cities.



10 turns later it looks like this. I wipe out the Zulu Empire.



After this I have the land for Domination, but I have to wait a few turns for city growth to gain the necessary population. The Khmer doesn't have anything impressive so I could wipe him out aswell, I even built 15 or so transporters. But Domination saves me the tedious overseas-warfare.

Here we go. 3 saves from the game for anyone who wants to follow the progress a bit. @georgjorge you wanted to check the kind of city development I did. Would be happy to know where I didn't reach full potential.

Game doesn't look great at 250 AD...

 

[fjordan]

Nice write-up (I like lots of pictures) and a good win from a difficult start. Your best quality seems that you have focus. Try to get somewhere and really commit to it. Like a heavily cottaged capital with lots of helper cities, or whipping lots of cannons so you can take on infantery. Good job.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Well done, Lain!

I was going to suggest stealing some technologies from the tech leaders. With your state religion in the target city plus the holy city, you can get some nice espionage bonuses. Some players have even built cities near their capital to reduce distance espionage cost and even get city culture espionage discounts. One will want Open Borders with the target Civ to reduce the chances of losing Spies; one might get the elusive trade route espionage discount too. Always get the Stationary Spy discount; it maxes out at -50%. Apply and use a lot of espionage versus a target and you get the Espionage Point Spending discount too. One can rob the AI of all its advanced techs in this manner rather quickly by stacking many spies in target cities and running the espionage slider for a few turns.

This way one can dedicate one's research for technologies the AIs do not have. Of course, some may not like using espionage at all; perhaps to increase the challenge of winning; that is just fine too.