Dell screws Ireland over... In favor of Poland

[TheLastOne36]

again with the inferiority complex... why are you mentioning communism? Poland is dirt poor compared to most of western Europe, and Rich as astronauts compared to most of Africa. It's relative; the terms rich and poor can only exist if you have somehting to compare them to. Shekwan, ignore it, it's an inferiority complex some (but not all) of the central and eastern Europeans on OT have.

I could film an average day of my life and show myself walk on the street's with stores just like any other modern country, go to the pool just like any other modern country, come home and take a shower in a modern washroom like any other modern country. It isn't some inferiority complex, when i live my life like any other European.

I mentioned Communism because we were dirt poor back then, and it was a part of our history when it was bad for us, Poland isn't dirt Poor compared to Western Europe, If by your definition Poland is dirt Poor, then so is Ireland and Portugal.

Again, we aren't dirt poor commies anymore.

I highly doubt that buddy. I have many polish clients and travel there very often, and there is clearly no way to compare the two nations financially... Is poland closing the gap every day? yes. Is the gap closed yet? not realy there is still a lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng way to come

I wasn't comparing nations wealth(france would clearly win if i was), i was comparing every day life and every day people. I don't think their is much difference in every day life in America, and all of Western/Central Europe. (Except maybe slovakia).

From the OP:



Completely unrelated to the previous discussion whether Poland is wealthy or not (honestly) - how does this pay relate to others in Poland? Is that a good salary?

No, that is a fairly bad salary imo, i make almost triple that in my part time job. They are taking advantage of the unemployed in Poland imo. Wouldn't be surprised that ounce those former unemployed people start asking for higher wages they'll move to Asia.

 

[sumit1207]

I mentioned Communism because we were dirt poor back then, and it was a part of our history when it was bad for us, Poland isn't dirt Poor compared to Western Europe, If by your definition Poland is dirt Poor, then so is Ireland and Portugal.

Again, we aren't dirt poor commies anymore.



I wasn't comparing nations wealth(france would clearly win if i was), i was comparing every day life and every day people. I don't think their is much difference in every day life in America, and all of Western/Central Europe. (Except maybe slovakia).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:655px-European_Union_GDP_per_capita_w_text.png
Actually on a GDP per capita basis, Ireland is out of Poland's league (Portugal is comparable). Actually it came as a shock to me that it's even better than the UK, France, Germany, etc. And Slovakia is actually wealthier than Poland so. . .

 

[TheLastOne36]

Yeah Winner, I think I know what its common usage is a bit better than you, and yes, Poland is indeed a poor country compared to Western Europe. Why would anyone not object to being called poor? Because some countries ARE poor, and pretending they arent is just pathetic. Ireland was dirt poor for a long time, now we might be heading back to that. think we will try and kid ourselves we arent if it does happen? No, we'll admit it.

HAHAHA Did you just compared the dirt poor Ireland to a 2009 Poland as equals?

Woooooooow...

Poor is an inherently relative word, you may not be aware of this because English isnt your first langauge. You cannot be poor or rich unless there is something to compare it to. Its just not possible, any more than its possible to be tall, fat, or thin. Sorry Winner, you are just out-and-out wrong on this. Poland is poor compared to Norway, rich compared to Somalia. Its nothing at all on the scale of rich and poor when compared to no other country, because that makes no sense. You are wrong.

BTW, point out where I have sneered at Poland, cause I've looked over my posts and I cant see it. Yet again, you imagine eastern and central Europe is being looked down on by westerners, when it isnt. Textbook inferiority complex.

Poland is poorER then Norway, and richER then somalia. No question about that. You said dirt poor. We aren't poor, we are poorer then most Western European Countries, but not Poor comapred to them.

So the average French person is twice as well off as the average Pole.

in terms of money, yes. In terms of lifestyle? about equal.

Secondly, poor is used in this thread as an economic term, which takes into account relative wealth. Do you think the Polish government sit down and say, "Well we're very well off - just look at how Angola's doing!" No they don't because that ridiculous. They sit down and ask, "How can we raise wealth levels to that of the EU15?" I have every confidence that Poland will do this, but economically speaking they are still a poor country in Europe.

Again, poorER not poor. And you said Europe, we are richer then half of Europe if you didn't know. If you you said EU then i'd agree with you.

Oh, and since its kind of on topic. I just got my new Dell today. It said "Made in Poland" on it. I'm pleased to report its still running but I can sense the poor eastern european craftsmanship...

Good to know your supporting our country!

I'ver already explained why the term poor is used here. On the scale of wealhiest to poorest countries in Europe, Poland is nearer the poor end. Poor is simply used as an antonym for wealthy. So it isn't a wrong term. I could use a euphemism like "developing" but I feared that that too would upset you and your PC term alarm. Jeez, can't win either way.

At least know I know that the PC thing only applies to defending racists. Fair enough.

Europe doesn't end in the EU border. If you said EU then i'd agree with you, but then we have to look at Albania, Macedonia, Belarus, Ukraine, Russia, Bosnia and a few others if you said Europe.

Poor is an antonym of Rich not Wealthy. Wealthy is describing how poor or how rich. Western European countries are wealthier then Poland. Poland is not as good of as Western European countries, it does not necessarily mean that Poland is poor, Poland is poorer, but not poor.

It's like comparing a class of ten kids, two of them being really tall, 1 slightly taller then the other, and saying that the other tall one is short.

A normal person looks at the economic indicators and says yes Poland is poor compared to the EU 15. Somebody with an inferiority complex sees it as a slight against their people when the term poor is used.

Interesting, i agree with this statement in bold, but i also take offense when you call my country poor, yet i get labled as having an inferiority complex!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:655px-European_Union_GDP_per_capita_w_text.png
Actually on a GDP per capita basis, Ireland is out of Poland's league (Portugal is comparable). Actually it came as a shock to me that it's even better than the UK, France, Germany, etc. And Slovakia is actually wealthier than Poland so. . .

well i wasn't exactly aware of Ireland's state untill now, so thanks But GDP is a bad way to measure, Poland is more developed then Slovakia by far. Slovakia is actually doing fairly bad compared to their former partners the czechs.

---
The discussion started from a misunderstanding. Poland is poorer then Western Europe for sure, but Poland is in no way "Poor"

Further proof that Poland isn't dirt poor: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7706425&postcount=86

 

[really]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:655px-European_Union_GDP_per_capita_w_text.png
Actually on a GDP per capita basis, Ireland is out of Poland's league (Portugal is comparable). Actually it came as a shock to me that it's even better than the UK, France, Germany, etc. And Slovakia is actually wealthier than Poland so. . .

Wait till this time next year and Ireland will be probably have unemployment higher than Poland's. We are a model (since 1999) of how not to manage your economy when you are in a currency union don't have control over interest rates and FX.

 

[warpus]

Guys...

Saying Poland is "dirt poor" just because it's poorer than most of Western Europe is like saying that Jessica Alba is "f'n ugly" because she's uglier than {insert list of 10 girls hotter than Jessica Alba}

Tomatoes aren't "f'n disguisting" because they don't taste as good as bacon.

 

[sumit1207]

Guys...

Saying Poland is "dirt poor" just because it's poorer than most of Western Europe is like saying that Jessica Alba is "f'n ugly" because she's uglier than {insert list of 10 girls hotter than Jessica Alba}

Tomatoes aren't "f'n disguisting" because they don't taste as good as bacon.

The person that said Poland was "dirt poor" also said it was "rich as astronauts," which is true, as he mentioned, compared to some third-world country in Africa. No one is claiming it's the poorest country that ever was, but it is poor compared to the US or most western European nations. Of course it's rich compared to Zimbabwe.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Yes, but it isn't dirt poor compared to Western Europe to. I guess it's what you think "Dirt Poor" Is. I consider it as what countries in Africa would be, not a modern country in Europe. I wouldn't consider Belarus dirt poor even though Poland is a 100 times richer then it, (exageration if you can't tell).

 

[Mowque]

Charts to the rescue- http://www.worldbank.org/depweb/english/modules/economic/gnp/dataeuro.html

Edit- YIKES its dated...sorry guys...

 

[Oerdin]

I mentioned Communism because we were dirt poor back then, and it was a part of our history when it was bad for us, Poland isn't dirt Poor compared to Western Europe, If by your definition Poland is dirt Poor, then so is Ireland and Portugal.

From the CIA World Fact Book:

Ireland GDP per capita (PPP) - $47,800 (2008 est.)

Poland GDP per capita (PPP) - $17,800 (2008 est.)

Poland isn't exactly dirt poor but it is no where near Ireland. It's also almost $5000 behind Portugal which is the poorest place in western Europe.

 

[TheLastOne36]

That was covered already Oerdin.

 

[sonorakitch]

The subject bar should probably be: Dell screws over the US then Ireland in favor of Poland.

Yea, except that Dell trying to sell an American made PC to customers in the Middle East or Africa wouldn't really provide economies of scale, and thus Dell would lose the market and layoff people in the US after all.

At least give the jobs to the Polish and skim profit off the top to bring home...

~Chris

 

[Shekwan]

LastOne, I really think that your economic nationalism is hilarious. You take offense to Poland being called poor as an economic term of relative wealth. You're right I should have said EU instead of Europe. Does it make you feel prouder to be Polish if the average income of your countrymen is higher than X country? Do you think Norweigens and Irish people go around boasting about their GDP per capita?

Really this is ridiculous. The statistics show that the average Pole is half as well off as the average western european. Now I'm certain that this will change, and that in a few years things will be more equal. But for the time being it would not be incorrect to call Poland poor relative the average EU country.

I mean the fact that you are making such a big deal about this shows a inferiority complex. The comments made were completely inoffensive.

 

[TheLastOne36]

LastOne, I really think that your economic nationalism is hilarious. You take offense to Poland being called poor as an economic term of relative wealth. You're right I should have said EU instead of Europe. Does it make you feel prouder to be Polish if the average income of your countrymen is higher than X country? Do you think Norweigens and Irish people go around boasting about their GDP per capita?

Really this is ridiculous. The statistics show that the average Pole is half as well off as the average western european. Now I'm certain that this will change, and that in a few years things will be more equal. But for the time being it would not be incorrect to call Poland poor relative the average EU country.

I mean the fact that you are making such a big deal about this shows a inferiority complex. The comments made were completely inoffensive.

Well i've been furthur east of Poland, and i've seen real poverty in ukraine, belarus in particular. Poland is in no way similar to Ukraine and Belarus, Moldova and others economically. Dirt poor inside of Europe would imo refer to them, RRW called Poland dirt poor, which is why I was offended.

The Average Pole financially might be less well off then the average Western European, but the Average Pole, also doesn't live in crummy conditions. Our lifestyle is also not that different compared to Western Europe. It doesn't make me feel prouder to know that my country's average income is better then X, but I do feel the need to correct somebody when they make it seem like my Country is . .. .. .. ..

Again, I agree with this sentence in Bold, because it is true. (although Poorer would be a better word, because I think most of us think of 'poor' as in countries in Asia and Africa). It does not mean however that my life style is lesser then yours.

I think you guys just can't accept that people in former communist countries live in the exact same/very similar conditions and exact same/very similar lifestyles as you guys do. My everyday life i bet is no way much different from yours.

 

[Shekwan]

Well i've been furthur east of Poland, and i've seen real poverty in ukraine, belarus in particular. Poland is in no way similar to Ukraine and Belarus, Moldova and others economically. Dirt poor inside of Europe would imo refer to them, RRW called Poland dirt poor, which is why I was offended.

The Average Pole financially might be less well off then the average Western European, but the Average Pole, also doesn't live in crummy conditions. Our lifestyle is also not that different compared to Western Europe. It doesn't make me feel prouder to know that my country's average income is better then X, but I do feel the need to correct somebody when they make it seem like my Country is . .. .. .. ..

Again, I agree with this sentence in Bold, because it is true. (although Poorer would be a better word, because I think most of us think of 'poor' as in countries in Asia and Africa). It does not mean however that my life style is lesser then yours.

I think you guys just can't accept that people in former communist countries live in the exact same/very similar conditions and exact same/very similar lifestyles as you guys do. My everyday life i bet is no way much different from yours.

So you've now actually made up something to get angry about. Nobody ever said that Polish people have any worse of a lifestyle than other EU people.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Which is my point. We get lower income on average, but we live the exact same as you guys.

 

[warpus]

Really this is ridiculous. The statistics show that the average Pole is half as well off as the average western european.

Shekwan, I live in Canada, a country with a GDP that's much higher than the one in Poland.

I travelled to Poland in 2004.. and yes, people there, on average, make far less than the average Canadian.

But guess what.. everything is much, much cheaper!

So yes, the average Pole makes about half as much as the average western European.. but to conclude, from that, that the average Pole is half as well off is just silly. You're forgetting other variables.

 

[HannibalBarka]

Well i've been furthur east of Poland, and i've seen real poverty in ukraine, belarus in particular. Poland is in no way similar to Ukraine and Belarus, Moldova and others economically. Dirt poor inside of Europe would imo refer to them, RRW called Poland dirt poor, which is why I was offended.

So you feel offended when we call "Poland dirt poor" but you don't mind calling Ukraine, Belarus and Moldova "dirt poor"?! Seen from Paris, London or Dublin, Poland is dirt poor the same way as seen from Warsaw Ukraine and Moldova are dirt poor.

The Average Pole financially might be less well off then the average Western European, but the Average Pole, also doesn't live in crummy conditions. Our lifestyle is also not that different compared to Western Europe. It doesn't make me feel prouder to know that my country's average income is better then X, but I do feel the need to correct somebody when they make it seem like my Country is . .. .. .. ..
Again, I agree with this sentence in Bold, because it is true. (although Poorer would be a better word, because I think most of us think of 'poor' as in countries in Asia and Africa). It does not mean however that my life style is lesser then yours.

I know that the average Pole does not live in crummy condition, they weren't living in crummy condition even under the communist rule, well at least if what you call crummy condition is "not having access to all basic needs: food, heathcare, a house, education etc). Fact remains that while I can go spend my vacations in Poland any time I want, my Polish-equivalent can't come to Paris for vacation when it pleases him, because I make much more money: If I were to do the job I am doing here in Paris in Warsaw, I'd be making 4 times less money

I think you guys just can't accept that people in former communist countries live in the exact same/very similar conditions and exact same/very similar lifestyles as you guys do. My everyday life i bet is no way much different from yours.

because it is not the case on average!!! You'll see many Poles living the same lifestyle of French, Dutch or Germans, but than again you'll also find many Chinese, Indians, Ukrainians having alos the same lifestyle. Just to give a hint about why Poland is poor compared to UK or France: thousands of Poles migrate to the UK to find a job, not one English would move to Poland for the same reasons, well at least not in the same condition.

 

[TheLastOne36]

So you feel offended when we call "Poland dirt poor" but you don't mind calling Ukraine, Belarus and Moldova "dirt poor"?! Seen from Paris, London or Dublin, Poland is dirt poor the same way as seen from Warsaw Ukraine and Moldova are dirt poor.

So compared to Paris, Poland is Dirt Poor, but so is Cape Town. How do you think that makes me feel, being told that Cape Town is the equivalent to Poland? (I know you guys mean it differently, but Dirt Poor isn't a good term. I already pointed out poorer as being a better word.

Parts of Ukraine, Belarus and Moldova imo are dirt poor, and calling Poland dirt Poor is ignorance. What is Ukraine, Belarus and Moldova to Paris London or Dublin? Dirt poorer?

I know that the average Pole does not live in crummy condition, they weren't living in crummy condition even under the communist rule, well at least if what you call crummy condition is "not having access to all basic needs: food, heathcare, a house, education etc). Fact remains that while I can go spend my vacations in Poland any time I want, my Polish-equivalent can't come to Paris for vacation when it pleases him, because I make much more money: If I were to do the job I am doing here in Paris in Warsaw, I'd be making 4 times less money

1st of all, Many many MANY Polish people go for vacations nowadays. (thought not Paris because it is overpriced and not as warm as Italy or Greece) secondly, there was a lack of food and i don't think you could consider the soviet style blocks as houses, seeing as it is basically 1 room and a toilet and kitchen.

because it is not the case on average!!! You'll see many Poles living the same lifestyle of French, Dutch or Germans, but than again you'll also find many Chinese, Indians, Ukrainians having alos the same lifestyle. Just to give a hint about why Poland is poor compared to UK or France: thousands of Poles migrate to the UK to find a job, not one English would move to Poland for the same reasons, well at least not in the same condition.

Thousands of Poles take advantage of the currency exchange between the British Pound and the Zloty. When Poland adopts the Euro, i can bet you that the migration to England would stop, and only the poorer people in the Polish Countryside would be migrating over.

I don't think the British would take their Pound to Poland to get zloty's which is why there is no Brits over here other then for vacation.