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Democracy VS Communism?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by myclan, Feb 19, 2018.

  1. myclan

    myclan Prince

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    Before R&F Democracy provides a nice boost for GP pursuing, and communism focus on production. But in R&F democracy provides production at well. In the later part of the game we will at least have about 2~3 districts in cities that is 4~6 production, seems much stronger than the +10% production of communism. So in what circumstance I will choose communism even I need production?
     
  2. Dragabond

    Dragabond Warlord

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    Personally I'm a fan of going into Democracy first, getting my tier 3 building in my Government Plaza to unlock the Democratic Legacy policy, and then switching to Communism. Losing the discount on gold purchases isn't something that I even notice, and the massive boost to production that it gives is much appreciated.
     
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  3. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    To steal from myself in the Rate The Governments thread...
    "
    Communism, while again having more military cards than it really needs (I would change it to 2-3-1-2) has that rock solid +10% production... but that isn't the legacy bonus. The governor production bonus isn't bad, but it just doesn't mesh with the idea of a wide empire.

    I do not understand what they were thinking with the communism and democracy changes. The legacy bonuses should be flipped. Communism was the "wide empire production boost," Democracy was seemingly geared towards smaller & taller empires (see: New Deal card.) But, as others have noted, the democracy per-district bonus is overpowering:

    The marginal District is 3 population. That's 1.2 production per 3 population in up to 7 cities with governors, or you could have 2 production and 1 housing in all cities. The reason democracy is so good, though, is because you can stack legacy cards with same government bonuses. (I would advocate this gets removed.)
    Now we have 2.4 production per 3 population under communism, but 4 production and two housing under democracy. That means one district supports 2/3 of its pop requirement. Granary+Sewer, therefore, fully supplies 4 democracy districts under this regime. Plus water bonuses, and you can have size 20-30 cities that don't need a neighborhood. It's crazy. Plus you're getting an effective 1.33 hammers per pop!! (With the first district coming at size 1, this tips the scales even further towards democracy.) You don't need many districts for this to beat out the 10% flat boost.

    Here's an easy example: A size 7 city has 3 districts. Democracy gives 12 hammers, communism gives 5.6 (we'll round to 6.) For the 10% boost to make up this deficit, the city needs 54 other production. That's 7.7 hammers per pop. That means all 7 citizens working petra/ruhr desert hills mines, PLUS another 12 from somewhere (IZ presumably.) As the city pop goes up, democracy's advantage only increases. Until you've built all 10 specialty districts, (do neighborhoods count for this?) at which point democracy caps at 40, and communism catches up at 50 population. It's that absurd. And again, you aren't limited to 7 cities like communism.
    "
    So essentially, if we assume:
    -Your empire is at least reasonably built out; your cities tend to have at least ~half to two thirds of their district limit built
    -You get and run the tier 3 legacy card
    -If you have 7 or less cities, they aren't on average over size 49

    Then Democracy is superior to communism for pure production. Remember that the 10% is actually not very much and is less valuable relatively if you have other production % boosts like Ruhr, high amenities, the Amundsen-Scott Station, certain leaders' war declaration bonuses, etc. Democracy also gives housing, so you don't need to build nearly any neighborhoods. This means you have more tiles producing yield and less targets for spies to recruit partisans. And you get cheaper gold purchases, which is equivalent to getting an empire wide 1.33x multiplier on you gold. It's just a better government in every way.
     
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  4. Bad Wolf

    Bad Wolf King

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    Someone should add a subtitle to this thread - The Cold War, Part Deux
     
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  5. Esperr

    Esperr King

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    They made communism almost strictly worse then democracy this time around, and because theres really no flavoring to any of thr governments, you pretty much always pick democracy.

    They really need to either give them more flavor, or have specific cards that you can or cant use with certain governments. Otherwise it just feels to robotic.
     
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  6. hongyu20

    hongyu20 Chieftain

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    I think you meant size 9 ?
     
  7. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Emperor

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    I pretty much always took democracy before R&F, and I will continue to do so now. Not so much for the bonus, but because I don't need that many red cards
     
  8. Leyrann

    Leyrann Deity

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    Democracy has more options for economic cards, which makes it an easy choice for me.

    I typically take Communism first however because I tend to prioritize boosted techs and I typically get the Communism boost long before the Democracy boost.

    If they want to make it a real choice, they have to increase the value of military cards.
     
  9. Sostratus

    Sostratus Deity

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    I apologize, the 49 was a very rough back of the envelope number. But let me explain for the benefit of anyone who think communism has a fighting chance in this.

    If you run either government and it's legacy card simultaneously, you will find that a Communism governor gives 0.4*2=0.8 production per citizen. Plus 10%, which I forgot to include in my post I'm quoting myself from, you get 0.88.
    The first district in a city is pop 1, and every 3 thereafter. Thus, if you place those districts, Democracy will give you 2*2=4 production per district. You have one district per three pop, so that is 4/3=1.33 production (and .66 housing) per citizen.

    It follows that as long as you're building more than 0.88/1.33 = ~66% of your districts, democracy will yield more production per citizen than communism's governors. These are late game, tier 3 governments, so it is a reasonable assumption you've been able to get that threshold.

    There are only 10 specialty districts available, though.
    (Encampment, Campus, Th Sq, CH, Harbor, IZ, EC/Waterpark, Aerodrome, Spaceport, and I'm not sure if the aqueduct counts. I know neighborhoods don't.)

    Let's give an edge to the proletariat here and assume the aqueduct doesn't count and that we're landlocked too. And let's assume we cannot into space either. That's 7 specialty districts remaining.
    Democracy is giving you 28 production for that. (You need 19 pop to build them all; not an extraordinary figure.)
    Under communism, we need ballpark of ceiling(28/0.88) = 32 population to make up that 28 production.

    If you pick up the spaceport and harbor, then you need 41 pop as communism to match democracy. Of course, there's fixed yields from buildings in those districts. Let's account for that.

    You can actually plot out how much other production you need for Communism's 10% to match the advantage of democracy's districts.
    upload_2018-2-20_3-8-34.png

    Here's the tabulated data. "Base production" column refers to how much other production a city would need so that the 10% bonus under communism outweighs the democracy advantage. The next column cuts out the 1-3 districts that give production yield: the IZ (assumed to give perfect 12 adjacency, plus 9 for buildings) the encampment (6 from buildings) and the aerodrome (5.) The last column takes that terrain production and puts it in terms of how much production the average citizen working a tile must bring in. I add the district building outputs in IZ first, then encampment, then Aerodrome, while the city has 3 or fewer districts.

    4 production average means every citizen is working a grassland hills mine. This is obviously a bit untenable, because this has to be true across EVERY city assuming you have 7 or less, and those mines aren't giving more than 2 food. Remember, you need a governor to get the Communism bonus, and there's only 7. If you have more than 7 cities, then it's starting to look real grim for the hammer and sickle, my fellow workers of the world.

    Of course, and democracy is giving you free housing and -25% on gold purchases too. And it has a more versatile card distribution.
     
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  10. Bad Wolf

    Bad Wolf King

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    Yeah someone really needs to explain to me how 0.4 production per citizen, and ONLY in cities with governors, plus a small-empire wide production bonus, compares at all to -25% on gold purchases plus free housing? Maybe 1 extra production per citizen empire-wide would be worth it, maybe...

    I guess they were going for realism in that no one in their right mind would ever choose Communism because it's a total catastrophe of an ideology?
     
  11. Karpius

    Karpius King

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    Seems logical.:yup:
     
  12. Frostburn

    Frostburn Warlord

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    Democracy seems way better in almost every situation unfortunately
     
  13. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    Setting aside realism for game balance for the moment, having Communism be production focused and Democracy gold focused would seem to be a better system.

    If a tweak is coming, I'd rather they eliminated Democracy's benefits towards production rather than boosting Communism's.
     
  14. Bad Wolf

    Bad Wolf King

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    "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others." - Churchill, apocryphally
     
  15. Revolutionist_8

    Revolutionist_8 Prince

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    ... that have been tried." :mischief:

    I agree, this overlapping of production bonus puts communism into an awkward position. The governments should have more distinctive characteristics.

    (or internal politics feature implemented in the future, aka you can get more out of democracy but you probably need to fight with the opposition parties... ahh, one can hope :rolleyes: )
     
  16. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    Communism is great in theory, but fails in practise.
     
  17. the343danny

    the343danny Emperor

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    I don't think people advocate systems that are bad in theory. Regardless of your political position, communism being a viable choice makes for a better game.
     
  18. Pietato

    Pietato Emperor

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    Neoliberalism (Reagan) is horrible in theory and practise, but is still widely advocated and used.

    But yeah, they need to balance the governments better.
     
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  19. Bad Wolf

    Bad Wolf King

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    Because this is a gaming and not a politics forum I will agree to disagree.
     
  20. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Brickhead

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    Democracy emphasises unique districts while Communism is raw population. It would suggest that one is more about mines and farms and other improvements while the other is district spam. So, if you're doing the latter, go for Democracy. Communism sounds good for 1-2 districts and then mostly industrial zones and campuses.
     

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