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Democrats: Colleges must police copyright, or else

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by woody60707, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. JollyRoger

    JollyRoger Slippin' Jimmy Supporter

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    Ron Paul, given the opportunity, would wipe out federal grants altogether. No need to condition it on the actions of the universities.
     
  2. Shadylookin

    Shadylookin master debater

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    they can block IP ports commonly associated with filesharing. however people can always switch ports and just blocking ports willy nilly can alienate people using IP ports for legit purposes. As for monitoring the internet it's pretty much impossible to monitor a campus sized network and all the data packets going back and forth. it's also invasive and can be ground to a halt if they use any encryption.
     
  3. Flak

    Flak vBülletin Förum

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    Not if you can't afford it due to the higher fees.

    Frankly I don't see colleges supporting this idea at all. Simple supply and demand (economics 101 if you like) tells you that if you raise your prices (tuition/fees) you're going to lose customers (paying students, whatever the source of money might be). Just a small rise can knock out many thousands of dollars of income per lost student that suddenly just barely can't afford it. Plus, it's really not a university's job to help some business control its product. Institutions of Higher Education have a very specific and valued function in our society. I think it's fairly safe to say that propping up the music industry's failing business model is not one of those functions, nor was it ever meant to be.

    Fairness isn't really the issue here, but I also personally balk at one point: the stereotype that all students engage in a certain behavior. I remember when I revealed to some fellow senior soon-to-be graduates that I'd never done drugs, in particular marijuana. They simply couldn't believe it. This experience was part of college life. Everybody does it. I told them about a government sponsored study that revealed that something like 65% of college had experimented with drugs. They responded that this in fact made their point and were starting to believe I was simply lying for whatever odd reason. I then pointed out that if 65% of college students had experimented with marijuana or other drugs, then naturally 35% must therefore have never done them. They were looking at one member of that 35%.

    Just because the music industry is losing money and a large number of college students download music, doesn't mean that everybody should pay for this behavior, whether that behavior is poor business practice or downloading music without paying for it.

    Also, I question the idea of of the government regulating business in such a manner. The idea of the government legislating that one group of businesses automatically pay money to another group of businesses, because the customers of that first group might be causing them to lose money.... Doesn't sound very 'free market' to say the least. I say let them go out of business.

    It would be sort of like the insurance industry getting a bill passed forcing the tobacco industry to pay it monthly fees to help cover medical claims. Those fees naturally would be passed onto the consumers of cigarettes. It seems very odd an idea.
     
  4. downtown

    downtown Crafternoon Delight

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    I attended a school that raised fees for this reason.

    For less than 50 bucks a semester, we got all the music we could download, with a greater selection than limewire.

    less than 100 a year isn't going to hurt any US university.
     
  5. Flak

    Flak vBülletin Förum

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    Indeed the reality is that it is hard not to attend a university that doesn't raise it's fees every single year for some reason or another.

    *shrug* What if I don't download music ever, and don't ever want to? Or what if I'm already a subscriber to a service? Why should I pay this? It's my job as a student to pay for the professors, the equipment, the quality of the campus, etc... things that actually have something to do with my receiving a higher education. It's not my job to help artificially prop up some failing business. If they can't run their companies profitably, let them go out of business.
     
  6. downtown

    downtown Crafternoon Delight

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    The reality is that we decide where we go to college is based on more than two variables. Colleges have to compete for talented students like never before, and as such, spent a lot of money on extra services, like a 20 million dollar gym/rec center, guest speakers, and now, discounted music. If you download a lot of media, the huge purchasing power of a university can actually save you money.

    You may *shrug*, but American University Presidents have done an awful lot of studying on this, and more and more are setting up similar programs. It really doesn't put a school at an economic disadvantage.



    Well, you also pay for a crap ton of other things that have nothing to do with *your school*, like the athletic department, teachers for other departments, scholarships you can't have, student clubs, etc etc.

    At American, you could opt out of the service if you liked. I kept it, my friends with Macs, or who didn't listen to much music, didn't.
     
  7. .Shane.

    .Shane. Take it like a voter Retired Moderator

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    To go w/ my earlier example, then why not charge your car insurance through the university.

    As flak pointed out, do you have an opt out clause?

    I can't believe that some of you can't see the disconnect in how Congress is trying to use the education system to prop up an industry that is failing because it hates its customers. Its completely inappropriate and completely illogical.

    In essence, Congress is forcing universities to subsidize the major label music industry because that industry has been driving themselves into the ground. Seriously WTF.
     
  8. .Shane.

    .Shane. Take it like a voter Retired Moderator

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    These things all have something to do specifically w/ the academic experience.

    That's good. Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of schools cutting deals w/ companies to save their students money on services because, in essence, the school is acting as a broker for group discounts and those services are OPTIONAL and they do it as a service to the student.

    This is wholly and completely different than extorting universities to prop up a dying business model.
     
  9. carmen510

    carmen510 Deity

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    There are most definitely, no opportunity for that at all.

    In the case he does, and he somehow manages to keep everything else the same, universities would either raise their tuition fees, or would be funded by some giant faceless corporation or a major charity like UNICEF.
     
  10. downtown

    downtown Crafternoon Delight

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    ^please don't tell me you honestly believe that some corporation is going to donate the millions upon millions of dollars needed to fund higher education without federal govt. help.
     
  11. downtown

    downtown Crafternoon Delight

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    Shane: You bring up some great points. I'll try to address those a little later tonight
     
  12. Zelig

    Zelig Beep Boop

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    I'm not going to get into the technical details, because it's obviously offtopic for this thread, but it isn't all that difficult to cut out the vast majority of filesharers. (All those using P2P or usenet). Most ISPs simply throttle them rather than cutting them outright, because throttling users tends to to alienate users enough to make them cancel their service.

    PM me or post in the computer forum if you want more details.
     
  13. bhsup

    bhsup Deity

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    Here's a radical suggestion. Simply do not provide internet access for students in their dorms. Colleges managed to educate people for centuries without it. There are libraries, etc. It would actually save the school money. If the student wants internet access in their room, they can arrange for their own. Wireless broadband, for example.
     
  14. Irish Caesar

    Irish Caesar Yellow Jacket

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    I agree on the one hand...

    ...but on the other, the university owns the networks here. My internet connection isn't Irish Caesar's, it's the Georgia Insitute of Technology's. This is basically a fine on a network which conducts illegal activity, no?

    :(

    I'll miss you guys...

    But seriously, I greatly prefer having a connection in my room for legitimate work purposes, too; it comes in handy for writing papers. I can access the library's databases from my room as long as I live on campus, which is nice in that (a) I can do work here conveniently and (b) I don't have to fight people for library resources. Online technical journals are a great use of resources and one I don't mind paying whatever I do for.
     
  15. Bill3000

    Bill3000 OOOH NOOOOOOO! Supporter

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    Not gonna work when the vast majority of administrative stuff and homework is online.
     
  16. Shadylookin

    Shadylookin master debater

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    my university blocks IP ports, but monitoring is a much bigger problem. Either solution limits legitimate usage(believe it or not but there are plenty of legal torrents and the like) Not to mention it isn't the Universities job to uphold copyright law. If Youtube, google, and ISPs have been ruled to not be liable for people using their service I fail to see why a university should be held to a different standard when it's the same internet.

    Other than corporate lobbying and google having better lawyers of course.
     
  17. .Shane.

    .Shane. Take it like a voter Retired Moderator

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    ROFL, wtf are you, a luddite?

    Internet is a great technology that improves a whole range of academic experiences. Do you really want me to list all the things that have enhanced about college life in the last few decades?

    Also, colleges have not "educated people for centuries". The idea that the middle class can go to college is extremely modern.

    "no?" is quite correct.

    By your logic, why isn't the govt. banning google? Put in a couple words in google and you can find a whole range of pirated materials. Google facilitates that.

    Do you propose arresting anyone who helped create your local freeway because sometimes people commit crimes on them or transport stolen goods on them?

    Seriously, this is stupid and illogical. Its extortion.
     
  18. Zelig

    Zelig Beep Boop

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    Yes, that is quite radical. Radical enough that I think universities would have extreme trouble filling dorms if they implemented such a solution.

    I realize their are legal torrents, but that's irrevalevent, most P2P blockage by ISPs is done in the name of conserving bandwidth.

    There's no such thing as "IP ports". There are IP addresses, which are assigned to individual computers (or other hardware) acessing the internet (or any network), and have nothing to do with limiting P2P. Then there are ports, which are a number present in the header of data packets sent/recieved over teh internet/other networks. Ports are also rather useless in traffic shaping, as most P2P solutions can choose to use any port, including standard www ports.

    Advanced deep packet inspecting software/hardware combinations make filtering out P2P extremely succesful, torrents can be crippled, regardless of encryption, port, DHT, lazy bitfield or any other option you set, along with fasttrack, gnutella, usenet, etc. While it is still possible to get around these problems, (not necessarily for torrents, but in order to get illegitamate files) the vast majority of users don't have the technical expertise required to do so. This in fact tends to save money for ISPs, as bandwidth can be quite expensive, and cutting out P2P saves a lot on bandwidth for them.
     
  19. AL_DA_GREAT

    AL_DA_GREAT amour absinthe révolution

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    How about that all the college students spam the system so that it brakes down.
     
  20. .Shane.

    .Shane. Take it like a voter Retired Moderator

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    So what. BW is what they deal in. I realize you're just explaining how things work, not necessarily defending them, so don't take this as me attacking your viewpoint. :)

    This is like saying: cars drive on roads and that degrades the condition of the roads and causes congestion, so, we should ban cars from the roads so that the roads don't break down and stay available for use.
     

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