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Demographics, Health Bonuses and Population Growth

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by Praetyre, Aug 14, 2011.

  1. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

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    Firstly, some background: I have long been planning and developing a private project aimed at being a sort of "grand sandbox campaign" for C2C, with a greatly modified time scale and a fully decked out Giant Earth Map scenario with 8 starting civs, expanding out via Revolutions and Barbarian Civs.

    One of the major, if not the primary feature of this scenario has been altering the costs of technologies so that a dominant, competent player under ideal conditions can speed through the tech tree in a more or less historically accurate (era-wise) manner. Another factor, however, has seriously complicated this goal. That is the factor of population growth.

    The growth factor for the Eternity game speed in this scenario-cum-modmod is much, much, much, much slower than the default setting of 900. This is due to a combination of three factors:
    1: The scenario itself is designed to last 10,000 turns, as opposed to the original Eternity's 4500.
    2: The Prehistoric era, during which no city should conceivable exceed 1 population, lasts 1000 turns.
    3: The Classical era, seeing as the Ancient era is truncated down to an awkward hybrid of the Chalcolithic and early Sumeria/Egypt/the Indus Valley civilization., is stretched through 2500 turns, partly due to not being able to have turn times less than whole years in BC days, and partly due to the fact that two eras are really being represented (the Mesopotamian/Egyptian era and the Greco-Roman era)

    Obviously, a civ with size 20 cities is going to be putting out a lot more :science: points than some dinky backwater where the common man's understanding of a "city" is size 3. As mentioned, it's based on a good sized civ, but what would be good sized for the time? Well, we could look at the actual city populations, but these are both problematic from a historical perspective (there should be maybe 4 cities size 12 by 0 BC, which is a pain in the gluteus maximus to achieve while allowing Babylon and Egypt to not have the population density of a bad RPG. Inconsistent with the building thresholds (I don't know about you, but I've never heard of a town with 150,000 people). This could mean two things:

    1. The populations are just plain off, seeing as (AFAIK) they haven't been edited from vanilla civ as they have no effect except as a little number.
    2. Cities in Civ/C2C do *not* represent individual metropolitan areas, but entire national subdivisions, as a general rule.

    As an example of how the the second principle would operate, let us apply it to the good old US of A. If the city of Houston represented only the metropolitan area of Houston, it would be a size 22 city (or 5,738,000 people in civ terms, which is the closest size to the real life Houston metro-area's 5,946,800). If, however, Houston was taken to represent the entire State of Texas, it would be a far larger size 37 city, or 24,601,000, which again is the closest size to Texas's 25,145,561. There would still be exceptions to the rule under this second assumption (Tokyo and New York City occupying such a vast majority of their subdivisions population, economy and culture).

    There is obviously a world of difference between a size 22 and 37 city, and as such the chosen model of city-representation will greatly influence the desired growth rate. For another illustration of this concept, a recent game of mine had an India stretching into parts of Southeast Asia with a population of 50,000,000 around 300 AD. This is smaller than a proper empire of the time would be (Rome with it's 70,000,000, and compare that with the Subcontinent and Southeast Asia's fertility and population), but only in terms of total population. If we use the metropolitan model, this civilization, most of whom's cities are well in excess of size 25, is about 1700 years too early.

    If one chooses to go with the metropolitan model, I propose a restructuring (a purely cosmetic one, and one I'm entirely willing to do under my own power) of the populations represented by each city size. Searching, however, doesn't seem to indicate what file sets these numbers, so I'd welcome any information on the matter.

    Here's a little table to show the proposed new population numbers (bold numbers are my replacements):
    1 1000 (1000)
    2 6000 (2000)
    3 21000 (4000))
    4 48000 (8000)
    5 90000 (16,000
    6 150000 (20,000)
    7 232000 (30,000)
    8 337000 (40,000)
    9 469000 (50,000)
    10 630000 (75,000)
    11 823000 (100,000)
    12 1051000 (150,000)
    13 1315000 (200,000)
    14 1618000 (250,000)
    15 1963000 (300,000)
    16 2352000 (350,000)
    17 2787000 (400,000)
    18 3271000 (450,000)
    19 3806000 (500,000)
    20 4394000 (550,000)
    21 5037000 (600,000)
    22 5738000 (700,000)
    23 6498000 (800,000)
    24 7321000 (900,000)
    25 8207000 (1,000,000)
    26 9160000 (1,250,000)
    27 10181000 (1,500,000
    28 11273000 (1,750,000)
    29 12436000 (2,000,000)
    30 13675000 (3,000,000)
    31 14990000 (4,000,000)
    33 17858000 (5,000,000)
    32 16384000 (6,000,000)
    34 19415000 (7,000,000)
    35 21056000 (8,000,000)
    36 22784000 (10,000,000)
    37 24601000 (15,000,000)
    38 26509000 (20,000,000)
    39 28508000 (25,000,000)
    40 30603000 (30,000,000)

    From 40 upwards, it would just keep increasing in intervals of 5,000,000 for every new pop point, though I doubt anybody would be able to create a miniature Coruscant. This new method would also make playtesting of my scenario under the metro-model significantly easier, as I'm terrible with numbers, let alone mentally noting them for such purposes.

    This next paragraph is specifically related to my project, but may be of use to those planning similar historical scenarios, so feel free to skip:

    Assuming the metro-model, I am going to create a temporary stopgap against excessive population growth in the form of an arbitrary cap that would begin at 1 and be gradually increased by specific technological advances. This cap would be discontinued as soon as a full disease and plague system was implemented. These technologies would be as follows:
    Sedentary Lifestyle: Raises cap from 1 To 6
    City Planning: Raises cap from 6 to 13
    Sanitation: Raises cap from 13 to 25
    Assembly Line: Raises cap from 25 to 29
    Industrialism: Raises cap from 29 to 37
    Globalization: Eliminates cap

    Is this possible, and if so, what would need to be done, file wise, to do so? I know Civ V restricts city size based on the presence of buildings like Aqueducts and Hospitals, I know SMAC did the same with Habitation Domes, but I'm not sure if Civ IV can do it with techs.

    Finally, on a more minor but still related note, there seems to be a glut of :health: bloat in the form of a gazillion buildings granting hard :health bonuses:. I love the wide representation given to the various periphery effects of the myriad buildings this mod has, but I think a percentage based boost would both be more balanced and more realistic. After all, a hard cap essentially implies a fixed, unchanging supply, whereas percentages imply that, for instance, your Most Serene Order Of The Yellow Hat Monastery Of Xinjiang is expanding to keep up with your population, rather than just sitting there doling out herbal remedies in the boonies. Keep the bonuses the health and sanitation (hospital, aqueduct, sewers, etc.) give, and if there's any building that simply screams out for a health-per-citizen bonus to counteract the negative health effects of overcrowding, it's housing, so that in order for a looksie too.
     
  2. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    I asked the same question quite a while ago. I wanted the cap like in Civ III where a city does not grow above size 6 unless you build an aqueduct. I did not get a direct reply. :( Although the suggestion was that it may be possible with SDK programming.
     
  3. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    Yes indeed. I can add a maxCitySize tag to the XML in various places if it's wanted (and do the necessary associated AI work so the AI understands it) if someone specifies what they want. I'd guess it would need a default-max in civics (?), with overrides in one or more of buildings, techs, ...? Anyway, none of it will be hard to do (apart maybe from gettign the AI to understand it well), so if you have definate ideas about what you want to see and what underlying XML mechanisms you would need to support it please post away.
     
  4. EldrinFal

    EldrinFal King

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    If city pop limits are introduced beyond the "cosmetic" version Praetyre mentioned, I think it needs to be an option in the starting configuration menu (vs being required). I can understand the reasoning from a "realistic perspective," but some people, like me, prefer playing the game as "pseudo-realistic."

    If a disease system gets implemented, that may be another option for you Praetyre, as the realistic approach (IMHO) would be for disease to cull the population once it breaches a certain threshold, instead of an artificial number cap.

    But I definitely think the more options players have to play the game the way they want the better! :)

    And a pop cap of 1 until Sedentary is going to slow the early game quite a bit, as well as make everyone make a B line to that tech. Will probably also reduce usage of all those food buildings. What would be the point of making Berry Bushes and Root Tubers if the pop can't go over 1 anyway? And doesn't Agriculture get researched before Sedentary?
     
  5. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    Speaking as the person who has to tune the AI, the LESS options there are the better. Whatever we do I will always be tuning the AI for the 'recommended set' and it WILL suffer in any other set, so if you want decent AI opposition you will either have to play in the recommended option set or not have very significant options.
     
  6. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    I'll vote for an Option reduction! The 1st one is get rid of REV! Completely out of the Mod. You can leave the DCM part.

    Then get rid of FB and Realistic Culture. Both are flawed.
    Then Limited religions. Same problem.
    Next Vassalage. (this one would be hard as it's a CivIV/BtS original)
    This would be just for starters.

    JosEPh ;) :mischief:
     
  7. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    You can, but I'm gone with REV. Best part of the base game IMO. I agree with you on limitted religions though and perhaps Vassalage
     
  8. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    My current approach for (one) disease is to make cities need much more food to grow. Some other diseases kill off population based on the unhealthiness.
     
  9. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Glad you made a topic on this Praetyr, rather than just PMing me. I told you people would be interested in your plans and point of view. :D

    I think Refrigeration should be in there somewhere. For without keeping food cold and air conditioning modern populations could not exist.

    It might also be interesting to link my Residential Buildings to City Size Limits.
     
  10. EldrinFal

    EldrinFal King

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    Well I think the AI is pretty damn smart in this mod already :)

    But if we're reducing choices, then my vote would be NOT to have an artificial limit set on city pop. It wouldn't be a game breaker, but I think it would alter the tech path everyone chooses quite a bit.
     
  11. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

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    Forgive me if my wording was ambigious: I wasn't suggesting incorporating these pop-limits into the main mod, just asking how to do it for the purposes of easier playtesting for my own scenario. I have no problem if anyone wants to integrate it as an option or new feature, but I definitely agree with the folks here that it would be too limiting for most people.

    Agriculture comes after Sedentary, IIRC. But in any case, the techs themselves are relatively arbitrary- it should be dead easy to apply this cap effect to any tech I or anyone else wants to once the method for doing so is figured out. My only hard suggestion for the mod would be in adjusting numbers if you assume cities are metropolitan areas, but that's purely cosmetic.
     
  12. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Nope Agriculture comes right after Sedentary Lifestyle. However livestock domestication comes before Sedentary Lifestyle. The reasoning is you can be nomadic and have livestock but you cannot be nomadic if your a farmer.

    You can see the tech tree here.
     
  13. EldrinFal

    EldrinFal King

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    Guess I should have consulted the tree first! :blush:

    I still think have a 1 pop limit would reduce the usage of a lot of those food improvements though, which are obsolete just after SL :D
     
  14. KingArthur666

    KingArthur666 Warlord

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    I agree with Eldrin. I like the idea of city pop caps better than city caps, but you can't limit a city size to 1 for the first age. It would take forever to get anywhere.
     
  15. Schwarzbart

    Schwarzbart Prince

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    You just have to limit the :) you can at max get and soon you have a non artifcal pop limit for your citys.
    I.e. Give :) not on the inital tech but on a later tech and then just have so many building aviable that gives :) and voila you have your max usfull population.
    Or did I miss somthing?
     
  16. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    If there is a pop cap then will there be no more unhealthy or angry cities from over population? Seems like if we want to limit population it should be done through not being able to keep a city healthy.
     
  17. Praetyre

    Praetyre King

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    So, does anyone have technical info regarding assigning progressively larger city pop-caps to technologies and editing the numbers of people for each city size? Or would questions of that nature be better suited to the modding tutorials subforum?
     
  18. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    I think putting an artificial pop cap would ruin the fact that you can build cities too big and unhealthy. Unhappy and unhealthiness should be the factor that keeps cities from growing too large too fast. I know people do no like their cities becoming unhealthy or unhappy but that's what keeps them in check.

    More tweaking of health and unhealth should be looked at.
     
  19. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    It would require new XML tags (or messy Python that doesn't bear thinking about). This is not hard to add, but lots of questions about what is needed must be answered first:

    1) What defines the base level (with no tech)? Is it a fixed number or is it dependent on game difficulty, or something else? If game difficulty what are the implications for flexible diffifulty?

    2) Is it only affected by techs, or is it modified by other things (civics, buildings, resource access, ...)?

    3) If it is modified by something you can switch out of or lose, what happens if doing so puts some of your cities over the limit?

    4) What happens if you capture an enemy city that is over your limit?

    5) What are the implications for wonders (or other buildings) that give free specialists? Do free specialists count against your pop limit? Do any specialists?

    6) What are the implications for wonders (or events etc.) that give free population? Do cities at the limit get a 'stored' free pop boost for when their limit goes up? If not how do these wonders need to be retuned?

    7) The biggest one of all. What doe the AI need to do to cope with these changes?
     
  20. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    @Koshling

    I think overall this is not a good idea. We can balance things with health and revolutions and keep cities in check. Its just a matter of tweaking and finding this balance.

    What we should be asking is at what time in the game should cities reach certain sizes. For instance what is the biggest city city for the prehistoric era? If we can know that then we can tweak accordingly to make extremely hard to keep a city happy and healthy over that size.
     

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