Demonic Hordes before turn 20

[WarKirby]

I just started a new game as the elohim. 4 turns in, 3 Azer appear on my borders. I was pretty much doomed, so I used the worldbuilder to conveniently delete them.

Turn 12, the Ljosalfar and Sheiam civs die simultaneously. I look in the worldbuilder again, and I find the ruins of their cities with another 3 Azer apiece around them.

Turn 17, 2 9 gargoyles appear on my borders. I quit

It doesn't really seem like a great idea for such powerful things to be created so early. Having to use the worldbuilder to survive isn't a good thing. What's going on?

I'm using FF0.50 with Patch D
Prince difficulty, Huge world, normal speed, 19 civs. None of the "raging barbarians", "wildlands", or "barbarian world" options used.

 

[Methuselah]

What's going on?

AI can explore lairs. They're getting the very bad results, which is causing said monsters to spawn.

 

[lordrune]

The stakes for early exploration are high. The possible rewards are great - golden ages for you, early great people. The possible risks include a quick annhilation of your entire civilisation, and probably every other civilisation on your continent.

It makes for a chaotic sort of game - once I restarted because I'd lost three of my 6 opponents inside the first 50 turns before I met them - but I'm getting used to the concept, if I'm not entirely comfortable with it.

 

[Sarisin]

Yeah, it is really working both ways now. I saw a single Azer take down 3 AI civs before Turn 50 in epic speed.

OTOH, the AI continues to get GPs at an unbelievable rate - I still think something is up there as I just never seem to get them from lairs.

I also saw a Dural Death Knight - that would be a real killer early on if the AI knew what it was doing.

I have received a Gargoyle, a Treant, a Lich and an Ogre Warchief in my first 3 games, but I guess that deal will end soon.

I think if you adjust the lairs to not produce nasty bad guys early on, you also have to adjust them to stop popping GPs too for balance.

 

[WarKirby]

I don't mind nasty bad guys, like a few lizardmen, some axemen, or maybe even a champion or two.

But gargoyles and azers are just too strong, especially for that early.

Maybe it would be good to implement some sort of cap based on the turn timer.

< 20 turns: No units over strength 4 will appear
20-50: nothing stronger than strength 5
50-100: strength 6 max
100+, limits removed, anything can spawn.

 

[WarKirby]

And I don't think there's a problem with getting great people. Everyone can get them.

Having horribly powerful monsters in the lairs balances nothing. There's no balancing to do when you're dead. Minor things like losing the unit you send in, spawning some wolf riders to pillage stuff, etc, are a fine balancing factor.

Things that are guaranteed to cause the death of a civilisation, are just pointless. Nothing is added to the game by AI opponents dying in the first 50 turns. You might as well just not have added them . And of course, dying yourself just ends the game. There's no point to it.

I just don't think the risk should ever be that high. I'm never going to allow it to happen anyways. If I lose a scout, or get some pillaging lizardmen spawned, I'll deal with it. If a strength 8 ogre warchief and a small army of axemen appear, I'm just going to open the world builder and delete them, because it just ruins the game.


And one of the worst parts, is that I can't even jsut make a decision not to explore. The AI is going to do it anyway. And after they get killed by whatever they've unleashed, it comes for me next, with a small empire's destruction worth of promotions

 

[Vehem]

And I don't think there's a problem with getting great people. Everyone can get them.

Having horribly powerful monsters in the lairs balances nothing. There's no balancing to do when you're dead. Minor things like losing the unit you send in, spawning some wolf riders to pillage stuff, etc, are a fine balancing factor.

Things that are guaranteed to cause the death of a civilisation, are just pointless. Nothing is added to the game by AI opponents dying in the first 50 turns. You might as well just not have added them . And of course, dying yourself just ends the game. There's no point to it.

I just don't think the risk should ever be that high. I'm never going to allow it to happen anyways. If I lose a scout, or get some pillaging lizardmen spawned, I'll deal with it. If a strength 8 ogre warchief and a small army of axemen appear, I'm just going to open the world builder and delete them, because it just ruins the game.


And one of the worst parts, is that I can't even jsut make a decision not to explore. The AI is going to do it anyway. And after they get killed by whatever they've unleashed, it comes for me next, with a small empire's destruction worth of promotions

Got to agree here now. I've pulled the worst culprit out of the options (Death Knight - very high strength unit that quickly gained the ability to summon Spectres or Wraiths). It was suggested by Xienwolf that we could restrict certain outcomes to only be available after a certain time in the game (the "big" results are most unbalancing in the early game - good or bad), but I'd initially resisted the idea. Having spent some time playing around with it though, I think it might be the best option...

It's worth mentioning that none of the options are new as such - they've all been around in either FF, Marnoks or FfH for several versions. The AI actively seeking the lairs (and the lairs spawning throughout the game) tend to make it a far bigger problem however.

 

[DavidB1111]

Usually when a big force spawns, I just open up World builder and spam 10 axeman who attack until they win.

I find that useful, because the survivors end up being really powerful.

I spawned a Death Knight, but he spawned as my unit. Did he like my civ's religion or something? Is there a small chance that units don't spawn against you? Because that was a little weird when I got the message. "The being responsible for the undead plague has appeared." And he was on my side! 11/12 strength!

 

[Iceciro]

I have to come down on the side of the lair exploration being tied to game turn/speed. Having a Hero Azer come out of a place and then go directly for the nearest AI really bit big wind - I picked Decius so I could get Keelyn's freaks later on, but the Azer killed her and three!!! other civs.

 

[Vehem]

I spawned a Death Knight, but he spawned as my unit. Did he like my civ's religion or something? Is there a small chance that units don't spawn against you? Because that was a little weird when I got the message. "The being responsible for the undead plague has appeared." And he was on my side! 11/12 strength!

Only in patches prior to E - shouldn't happen anymore (on either count - Death Knights were removed as an option, monsters should always be hostile).

 

[Sarisin]

Only in patches prior to E - shouldn't happen anymore (on either count - Death Knights were removed as an option, monsters should always be hostile).

Aw, I have to admit it was lots of fun while it lasted getting a Lich, Treant, and a Gargoyle early in the game.

I kinda like the lair exploration mechanism of getting a unit you might not otherwise get - one from another civ/religion. It doesn't have to be a super powerful one. For example, there is the result where you can choose between Lizardmen or Dwarven Axemen - this is probably my favorite here and in FFH. I have also got an Angel and a Monk before. I would like to see more of these where you can get things like Fawns, Drowns, Rathas, Boar Rider, Golems, Ogres, etc.

 

[Iceciro]

If it remains neat but low-tier units I'd appreciate that as Sarisin noted. I really, really like the lizardman/dwarf event and wish there were more with other things like it. Even Angelic/Demonic warriors, with perhaps the options adding/subtracting from your Alignment in Alignment extended - help the Demons, get - alignment, help the angels, get +, stand back and watch being an option too.

 

[Sarisin]

Or, maybe have a Guild of the Nine or similar mechanism where you could buy some of these units to add a little flavor to your army. I did get the offer to buy some Elven troops from the Guild of Nine, but as I was playing the Elves that was N/A. Also, it wanted something like 1,100 Gold for a few low-level units, so that was a non-starter.

Now, if they offered me a Vampire, a Brujah or even a couple of Moroi, I might have gone for it.

 

[Randomness]

I got a Dark Knight to. I didn't want to ruin my game so I used him to explore. He died withen 3 turns to a single gryphon... I guess this is the computers way of compensating... Gryphons on steroids.

 

[WarKirby]

If it remains neat but low-tier units I'd appreciate that as Sarisin noted. I really, really like the lizardman/dwarf event and wish there were more with other things like it. Even Angelic/Demonic warriors, with perhaps the options adding/subtracting from your Alignment in Alignment extended - help the Demons, get - alignment, help the angels, get +, stand back and watch being an option too.

This is a good point.

Finding creatures of various types in general, is cool, just as long as they're not too powerful, too early.

I wouldn't mind finding liches, death nights, azers, etc, on turn 400 when I have a sizeable army to fight them with. Just not when my capital is guarded by 2 warriors, and im still researching agriculture.

The dwarves/lizardmen thing, is a perfect example. Getting axemen very early can be kind of imbalancing, but it's not likely to allow you to conquer the world in an instant. So that's mostly ok.

 

[Lemminkäinen]

Howabout just restricting the more powerful beasts in ways similar to animals in that they wouldn't enter cultural borders? This limitation should naturally be restricted to some X amount of turns.