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Denouncing...seriously guys? Seriously?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Loucypher, Aug 6, 2012.

  1. Loucypher

    Loucypher King

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    Hookay, another diplomacy topic, but this one just struck me as hilarious.
    Situation: I'm on a continent with the Huns and Japan. With a 1 tile land bridge connection to Siam, who land-blocks us from the rest of the continent with Arabia, Celts and Rome. I took Commerce ASAP so I got a Great Admiral, with whom I've met all the other Civs (total of 16 in the game).
    Anyway, early on, Japan and the Huns CONSTANTLY attack me and I just defend. I end up retaliating taking a Hun city. And then the madness happens.
    Keep in mind here that the Huns only had Tri's at this point, and didnt take commerce, so theres no way they met anyone past Siam. Either way I park some units around Atilla's capital, steal some territory with a Citadel, he asks me to move my troops...but he just won't declare war.
    So I do.
    First, Japan denounces me. Alright, sure, you and the Huns been fighting constantly but alright. Then Siam. Then Arabia. And literally 3 turns later, THE ENTIRE FRIGGIN WORLD has denounced me.
    ...HOW?
     
  2. Glassmage

    Glassmage The Desert Flame

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    plz show pic of the global politics tab.
     
  3. Scarpa

    Scarpa Prince

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    Siam was probably friends with everyone else.

    I'm confused why after the Huns attacked you 'constantly' you had to end up declaring war?
     
  4. nefloyd

    nefloyd King

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    It's not hard to understand
    Being denounced tends to make other civs like you less. Suddenly, you're below the "I don't like you" threshold for which they'll denounce you in turn. Denounced by another civ brought you below threshold for another, then the whole world.
    And in corollary, the other civs denouncing you gave them positive modifiers to each other, which means other civs are likely to denounce because they get to be part of the cool kid's club.

    You declared war, so...ydi
     
  5. SS-18 ICBM

    SS-18 ICBM Oscillator

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    Yeah, declaring war after you say your units mean no harm is a negative with all other civs. And what the other people said about Denouncements and their snowball effect.
     
  6. chazzycat

    chazzycat Deity

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    yeah you should have just declared war when he asked you to move your units. You get hit with a big additional penalty beyond the normal DOW when you say 'no just passing through' and then DOW anyway...it's pretty much game over for diplomacy at that point.
     
  7. Monthar

    Monthar Deity

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    Yep, it was the declaring on him after promising that you wouldn't. Breaking such a promise makes everyone not trust you. This happens with all the things the AI asks you not to do, if you do them again within 30 turns on standard speed, 45 on epic, 90 on marathon and I think 25 on quick. Now, had you told him you were planning to attack, thus declaring war on his turn when he asked, you wouldn't have gotten the diplo hit for breaking a promise. If this is the first time you declared war on anyone (attacking cs to steal a worker counts as a declaration) then you wouldn't have had any diplo hits with anyone, because your first declaration is free.
     
  8. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    Does anyone know with certainty if this still applies to G&K?
     
  9. Glassmage

    Glassmage The Desert Flame

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    1st DoW NOT free. Try it!
     
  10. Harv72b

    Harv72b Prince

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    From my experience it does apply to very early DoWs against city states that are not being protected by anyone (i.e., worker thefts); I'm positive that doing it once incurs no penalty (this is a nearly every-game ploy for me), but I'm not sure about two or more because I've never pushed my luck.

    Beyond that, though, you pretty much have to limit your DoWs to leaders who are globally hated, or else pick a bloc and hope it holds together at least through the Industrial--the first DoW won't usually hurt your standing with civs who were neutral/friendly with you & not friendly with your victim, but will harm relations with any civs who were friendly with the one you attacked & will push leaders who had been guarded to denounce you.
     
  11. Halcyan2

    Halcyan2 Emperor

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    In Vanilla, I rarely DoW'ed city states. So far with G&K, I have never had reason to DoW city states at all (the few reasons I might have done in Vanilla, namely access to resources or natural wonders, I can now steal with Great Generals). I don't even bother bullying city states (in Vanilla stealing workers was a common reason for attacking city states).

    The only times I'm really aggressive against city states is in special Scenarios (the Mongol Scenario which had sweet benefits for doing so, or Ancient Wonders where you needed to farm XP).

    I agree it's a misnomer that the first DoW is "free." It's probably more accurate to say that the first DoW is usually (but not always) within the tolerance threshold of most of the AI leaders.

    Regarding DoW targets, I often find it useful to bribe my target into declaring war against everyone else before I DoW him. If he's willing to declare on several city states, then I get 100 free influence when I destroy his units plus getting him to DoW so many city states usually gets him denounced by the other players. If he's willing to declare on other major powers, I have potential allies that can distract his forces, and the "We fought against a common foe" benefit can help outweigh any warmonger penalties.
     
  12. Lakissov

    Lakissov Chieftain

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    Like others said, it's the snowball effect.

    To explain in more detail:
    - first, you got the penalty for DOW and promise breaking with Siam and Japan (not sure if it applied to others who hadn't met Huns yet)
    - then, Japan denounced you, which could have cause the penalty from you for Siam
    - then, Siam denounces you; usually they try to be friends with everyone, so likely this caused a hit for you with most other civs
    - when others start denouncing you, it's a chain reaction...

    What can I say, tough luck. Doesn't mean that diplomacy works in a wrong way in CiV, just tough luck.
     
  13. Loucypher

    Loucypher King

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    Well honestly, I get that Siam and Japan would denounce me, and MAYBE Arabia, Celts and Rome. What I don't get is that countries on the other side of the world whom I've only met with a Great Admiral's help were aware of the exact reasons.
    As for why I had to DOW Atilla this time - after his last transgression, I had taken two of his cities, and built up an army that was probably too big for him to consider tackling.
     
  14. FeiLing

    FeiLing Deity

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    But usually without consequences (if you didn't piss off someone another way before).
     
  15. The_Quasar

    The_Quasar King

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    Some pointers:-

    You should have made sure Attila was finished when you took his 2 cities... leave him with only 1 poor city which has nothing left (pillage everything in it). You would not then have needed to go to war against him later.

    You should also have denounced him, then others may have added their own denouncements, which would have put you in their good books.

    You should especially not have gone back on your word by declaring war... that really is what tipped the balance, for most of the civs. This really is a no no (unless you have overwhelming superiority), both in the real world, and in the game.

    Take this game as a lesson on what to do and what not to do Diplomatically... you will become a better player by learning from it.
     
  16. Peacemongerer

    Peacemongerer Prince

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    The first one isn't so much free as it just won't push you over the threshhold of most civs... you have like a warmonger "score" that civs look at and the XMLs determine what allocated you points. Points then decay by a certain amount per turn. A single DoW is just usually too low for the AI to notice. But try conquering a CS... it's a 200-turn penalty in just your first DoW.

    I think CS DoWs are also more frowned upon than DoWing a civ. I worker-thefted a CS and had a warmonger penalty with both my neigbhors almost asap.
     
  17. hobbsyoyo

    hobbsyoyo Deity

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    Curious- why did u DoW to get a worker instead of bullying them into giving u a worker?
     
  18. Scam

    Scam Chieftain

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    I find that simetimes it's really useful NOT to meet other civs if you want to take a close rival out. I can't confirm this, but it seems that if you declare war when you haven't met anyone else, when you finally do meet them, they do not take your previous diplomacy into consideration... Maybe this is false, but just what I gather from experience.

    As for your situation, you probably should have waited for war. I also suspect that there's some other penalty at play.

    EDIT: didn't see that he asked you to move your troops... Yeah, just come clean with your plans at that point, even if it sets you back in your war a little.. Sometimes it worth going back on your word, but in this situation, it's not.
     
  19. nefloyd

    nefloyd King

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    Yeah Scam I think its true. I can be a real bastard to my continent before meeting civs on another, and they'll be friendly
     
  20. Peacemongerer

    Peacemongerer Prince

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    It was too early in the game and I lacked sufficient military strength to bully them (I was busy w/ Stonehenge and didn't pump out another warrior). They also lacked the 4 population even if I had enough strength. A DoW was easier since the worker was right there and I wouldn't have to wait. Getting a second worker on like turn 20 did wonders... more than made-up for the diplo penalty. Also later became that CS's closest ally in the endgame phases.
     

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