Deny, Defend, Depose

[Senethro]

Unfortunately, it would appear the post in question has been deleted. I can read snippets via still existant quotes.

It appears that aelf did not understand my post. As stated, I am an opponent of the modern left. I do not believe this influential cohort is capable of driving reform in the United States, and do believe that they (unintentionally) block reform by driving support away. I am happy to be attacked, attributing it to consequence of successful distinction, something necessary to have any meaningful persuasive power with the larger public, many of whom believe the modern left so discredited they're content to blanket ignore the entirety of their preferences.

My primary concern politically is the creation of a group that can actually be used as a vehicle for reform. They are not that. As a family, I hope we buy a new car.

The core premise of the Comrade Voidwalkin platform is that it is necessary to use the state to ensure prosperity for all, urgently, because of the technological circumstances of today's world. From healthcare, to automation disrupting economic balancing, this is the question of our time: should it, or not. I believe yes, it is necessary. In practice, UBI, with more specific public works programs tailored locally, while taxing the rich in accordance with the interests of the larger society responsible for their financial success.

This is not very Republican. The modern left has labored to change contemporary morality, and flopped. Really, really flopped. It cannot succeed without a reboot. Extensive reboot. This is known amongst its more canny members. AOC seems to be quietly breaking from some of the more toxic and dogmatic ideology. It remains to be seen if all its members can successfully, or if the base will follow. Maybe they can sculpt it into a viable vehicle from within, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Similarly, its leaders condemn Mangione, because they know how perception is gonna inevitably shift, and they don't wanna be the last out with the loonies.

The so called modern left would support your agenda, and the people you'd partner with to purge them would not.

 

[aelf]

The so called modern left would support your agenda, and the people you'd partner with to purge them would not.

His agenda is bunk. He can't even dispute the fact that his reaction to this and to Trump's victory are contradictory. He's not against the modern left, whatever that means. He also dislikes academia, which was a bastion of the old left. He's just against the left.

Maybe he just doesn't realise that fascist movements also allied themselves with folksy populism (which they ultimately betray in favour of the elite - mirroring the contradiction here), so he thinks his veneer of folksy populism puts him in the left even though he tellingly can get along with no leftist.

 

[Gorbles]

This is not very Republican. The modern left has labored to change contemporary morality, and flopped. Really, really flopped. It cannot succeed without a reboot. Extensive reboot. This is known amongst its more canny members. AOC seems to be quietly breaking from some of the more toxic and dogmatic ideology. It remains to be seen if all its members can successfully, or if the base will follow. Maybe they can sculpt it into a viable vehicle from within, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Ah, so what you're saying it you want the class-first progress but not the social progress.

Interesting how that never seems to align with compromising with progressives to get a measure of progress enacted, and always seems to align with compromising with conservatives to block progressives (which also blocks their class-first progress, resulting in no actual progress).

I'm a big fan of judging on actions. I have yet to see any actual class-based advocacy from you, nor have I seen you chiding conservatives for their opposition to class-based progress. Theory is theory, once again.

 

[aelf]

I'm a big fan of judging on actions. I have yet to see any actual class-based advocacy from you, nor have I seen you chiding conservatives for their opposition to class-based progress. Theory is theory, once again.

There's theory and there are mere claims.

The obvious overlap here is social conservatism, while the economic progress part is apparently supposed to be achieved within a system that has failed people for decades, and any destructive reaction to that failure is only acceptable if it results in more social conservatism and unacceptable when it kills a murderous member of the elite.

 

[Voidwalkin]

The so called modern left would support your agenda, and the people you'd partner with to purge them would not.

Ah, so what you're saying it you want the class-first progress but not the social progress.

Interesting how that never seems to align with compromising with progressives to get a measure of progress enacted, and always seems to align with compromising with conservatives to block progressives (which also blocks their class-first progress, resulting in no actual progress).

I'm a big fan of judging on actions. I have yet to see any actual class-based advocacy from you, nor have I seen you chiding conservatives for their opposition to class-based progress. Theory is theory, once again.

The people turn to the right because Dem economic action has been insufficient to restore confidence.

The natural alignment that you'd expect, poor people voting left, is not really here anymore. It's not mysterious why. I get kinda tired explaining this. You cannot take something like the relatively ubiquitous pronoun re-evaluation, walk it into rural Alabama or Texas or Ohio or even New York and expect to come away with more seats than you've lost. This is not tenable in America. Nor could the practice of ubiquitous pronoun usage meaningfully alter the treatment of trans people in society. It was such a waste. There are many such wastes.

You're too rigid to get much done, expecting compromise when that would make the compromiser less or non viable as a political contender, over really frivolous causes. The people, by the way, do not agree with many of these as being morally optimal. You can neither tolerate this, nor convert them to your perspectives, and consequently, it all falls apart at the seams, routinely.

Sorry.

Here is an article from union boss Dustin Guastella.

The left’s best defense against Trump? Ditching limousine liberalism | Dustin Guastella

An effective fight against the president-elect requires a struggle that takes the frustrations of working-class voters seriously

www.theguardian.com

In it, he lays out my position at greater depth than I am presently willing to. Relevantly

Those on the left must confront the cultural elite that has pushed the party away from workers on all sorts of non-economic issues. While Trump and his billionaires won’t be able to adequately represent the economic interests of the working class, liberals must recognize that their party doesn’t represent their values. The Democrats captured by highly credentialed clerics has led them to embrace the cultural values of an aristocratic elite. From crime, to climate, to gender politics, and the border, mainstream liberal opinion is much further from the views of workers than many liberals are willing to admit. And this too is a class story.

He is entirely correct. I'm just a little more aggressive in it than he would be. I think your failure to recognize and adapt to the obvious facts laid out above is striking, and indicative of a cultural failure that is correctly identified as yeah, originating in academia.

 

[Gorbles]

The natural alignment that you'd expect, poor people voting left, is not really here anymore.

That's because there's precious little "left" in the Democrats.

So you've got to pick an argument. Are people not voting progressive left, or are people not voting Democrat? The two are different arguments.

Many analyses of the last election put economic problems front and centre. Not much else at all.

You're too rigid to get much done

I'm not a Democrat, lmao.

He is entirely correct. I'm just a little more aggressive in it than he would be. I think your failure to recognize and adapt to the obvious facts laid out above is striking, and indicative of a cultural failure that is correctly identified as yeah, originating in academia.

The entire paragraph reads as though it was written by a right-wing shock jockey.

Now this isn't me saying it isn't what he sincerely believes. I'm saying that the working classes are capable of being both right and left. So cherry-picking one to suit your argument isn't necessarily representative.

The issue is both Republican and Democrats are effectively anti-union (there are some holdouts, but in general both parties are far more capitalist than they are socialist). If you truly care about class-first issues this should resonate with you, and you should be capable of finding better examples than someone concerned about "the border" and "gender politics". Only one of those should even be on their radar as a union boss. When both are, it should make you question the interests of the pieces you're providing.

If, of course, you're actually class-first. My opinion is that you aren't. You're a socially conservative in my eyes, and that seems to drive your perception of both "the modern left" and the Democrats as a political party in the US. I mean this as judgementally as calling myself an intersectional leftist - which is to say, I don't mean this judgementally at all.

You should be championing leftist causes for actually advancing class-first interests. And yet you can't stop yourself from criticising them nomatter how much worse you profess the alternative to be.

FYI, I'm a STEM-heavy computer scientist. None of my politics originated in academia. They're very much driven by real-world experience. I recommend relying on conservative stereotypes less - they're as counterproductive to the working classes as you believe modern progressives to be.

 

[Zardnaar]

Traditionally left would be conservatives. Old Communists, Social Democrats etc would be conservatives on social issues today.

I lean towards social democratic economic first vs social. You need to curate the environment for liberal thought.

If the economy is bad for most people they will swing to populism.

NZ built welfare state 1st. The other liberal (top ten or so in the world) countries did that as well.

GoP did two genius things in terms of election. They/you add and who we're for. And bussing immigrants to NYC. Easy to be pro immigration I suppose when they're in red border states.

Healthcare been underfunded in a lot of places as people don't want to pay tax. In some places funding hasn't kept up population growth in effect a cut.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Biden had the best economy in decades. Trump had an endless and ongoing media campaign of "the economy is terrible" preached by talk radio, FoxNews, and his lies that began as soon as he lost in 2020. The Dems rarely are able to overcome the 30 year GOP control over the cultural and economic spin aimed at the public. One should note how the terrible economy of Joe Biden has all but disappeared from GOP rhetoric since November 5th.

 

[Voidwalkin]

That's because there's precious little "left" in the Democrats.

So you've got to pick an argument. Are people not voting progressive left, or are people not voting Democrat? The two are different arguments.

Many analyses of the last election put economic problems front and centre. Not much else at all.

Gorbles, they are opposed to the social attitudes of the left, of both progressives and Dems, specifically, the imperious manner in which the left tends to categorically deny their opposition has any moral legitimacy.

I'm not a Democrat, lmao.

Wiggling. You are a self-described leftist and not immune from participation in the same destructive processes described.

The entire paragraph reads as though it was written by a right-wing shock jockey.

Now this isn't me saying it isn't what he sincerely believes. I'm saying that the working classes are capable of being both right and left. So cherry-picking one to suit your argument isn't necessarily representative.

Gorbles, Dustin Guastella is a Teamster chief, a researcher of the Center for Working Class Politics, a member of the Democratic Socialists of America, and of almost unimpeachable leftist credentials. There are only a handful who can claim better.

If you would categorize his dissent as right-wing, similar to aelf, you are effectively attempting to deny any criticism regardless of source, categorically. What does that sound more like: a healthy group, or a rigid, doctrinaire, non-adaptive group who'd not see their chokehold on power lessen?

There are legions who Guastella speak for there. They are not well credentialed. They consequently seldom get printed in Guardian pages. But they exist, have always existed, and will continue to exist: in fact, they make up the majority of what was once the left wing base of support in the United States. To presume otherwise is the arrogance Guastella identified, that yours is the majority in spite of plentiful contrary evidence. This has been obvious enough I've known it for years.

You simply cannot advance progressive causes, either social or economic, if the majority of these people despise you. The polling is clear: M4A(which btw Guastella has spent a large chunk of his adult life in dedicated pursuit of) is widely supported. The issues that aren't? Yeah, it's the social progressive positions, and the imperious way they attempt to impose them.

The greatest opponent of leftism are the value imperialists that occupy its major positions, formally and informally. They have become so successful that their ideals are now so synonymous that to defy them categorically makes one a conservative? Dire state, indeed. As I'm actually interested in reform, I cannot take the efforts of their henchmen seriously.

The right needn't even lift a finger: these people have already rendered any opposition a shambles.

 

[Zardnaar]

Biden had the best economy in decades. Trump had an endless and ongoing media campaign of "the economy is terrible" preached by talk radio, FoxNews, and his lies that began as soon as he lost in 2020. The Dems rarely are able to overcome the 30 year GOP control over the cultural and economic spin aimed at the public. One should note how the terrible economy of Joe Biden has all but disappeared from GOP rhetoric since November 5th.

On laper nut inflation outstripped wage growth and cost of living crisis.

That's been ignored. Most people are worst off. Espicially since Trump was last in charge.

Not all Democrats fault and Trump won't fix anything.

 

[Zardnaar]

Fully funded Healthcare, dentist, social housing etc used to exist pre lgbtq rights for example depending on country.

The economic stuff can be independent from the social stuff. UBI wouldn't even be needed if you had robust welfare system and cheap housing.

Personal experience on that.

 

[Farm Boy]

Trying to have the nexus of egalitarianism be synonymous with the central interaction of class and accreditation, not going to work very well.

 

[Voidwalkin]

Trying to have the nexus of egalitarianism be synonymous with the central interaction of class and accreditation, not going to work very well.

Yeah idk why it doesn't dawn on people this may be a conflict of interest when it's so obvious it could play out that way.

 

[Farm Boy]

Will. Unless a sufficiently strong input overcomes it.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Fully funded Healthcare, dentist, social housing etc used to exist pre lgbtq rights for example depending on country.

Never in the US.

 

[Birdjaguar]

That's been ignored. Most people are worst off. Espicially since Trump was last in charge.

The story is more complicated than inflation vs wage growth. Who are these "most people" who are worse off? the link is a pretty good analysis of what goes into any such claims.

8 charts that explain the Biden, Trump economies

Get ready: In the 2024 presidential race, the candidates will talk about the economy. A lot. We know because it’s alread

www.politifact.com

 

[Voidwalkin]

Unless a sufficiently strong input overcomes it

As my man CJ McCollum said, famously responding to a Trail Blazers defeat,

I'm trying, Jennifer

No success yet lol

 

[Zardnaar]

Never in the US.

More pointing out to posters flaim8ng the economic and social stuff is one and the same.

https://www.politico.com/news/2024/12/22/democrats-2024-election-problem-focus-group-00195806

More problems for Dens post analysis. Progressive left doesn't appeal outside the typical circles.

You're one wowction loss away from having social policies revoked even if you get elected to begin with.

The numbers look good on paper prices are still high for average voters. Espicially if you don't own a house mortgage free.

You need to change the culture. That's going to take 20-40 years. Assuming you "win".

 

[Arwon]

flaim8ng wowction

 

[r16]

once again with the global super rich , this time dominating food distribution and my operations in Turkey is just a dot , basically the one ı erase from i . Can't tell how that exactly happened but if Russians lost a cargo ship off Syria , they might have accused New Turkey big enough to assist a cargo ship to almost turn turtle at the pier ? The CIA thing possibly encouraged it ; even if ı assume my number at the list of 400 people to be executed had the Disgrace of July 15th had succeeded that way in 2016 has been revised upwards . Nobody will have heard of me anywhere else in the country but making me a big bad wolf helps control over the big city nearby . Yes , ı will be laughingstock , the idiot of a pauper by Friday , but anyhow . The city had a point to talk about . Instead of the explosion that killed some 12 people in an ammunition factory owned by some actually rich Party people . ı think it is 4 streets down from mine where the street was renamed after the conscript who died in an arms depot explosion in 2012 . Should be interesting to hear how many of them heard about today's incidence . When they could talk about some idiot instead .

this thread is working quite allright .

mario seems under pressure , with some illegal immigrant setting fire on a woman with 3 more people waiting for her fire to get really going . But it is on the echo chamber and Party trolls might have misconstructed it for their own gain . Social sciences graduate with phd or whatever , there could have been more dead CEOs before it happened .