bigcat88
King
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- Nov 26, 2016
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Maybe just replace that promotion with something else?
Deranged navy
- Thread starter janat08
- Start date
pineappledan
Deity
Anything prior to cruisers: no access to +1 range
Cruisers: 1 range, access to range promotion as lvl 4 promotion shared by both paths
Battleship: 1 range, indirect fire, access to range promotion as lvl 4 promotion shared by both paths
Recommend new lvl 4 promotion: "Shore Bombardment" or "Salvo" or "GoogyWoops", 10 damage to units adjacent to target (essentially a splash I and II promotion)
At late modern, there are so many answers and counters to a battleship, that it will be a miracle if they can even get into 1 tile range. The late naval game has absolutely no answer for bombers, artillery, minefield, 3-range cities.
Broadside (+40% vs cities) promotion is a joke. should be at least 50%
It’s getting the point where “human wave” tactics or >2 aircraft carriers are about the only way to use a navy to take cities. A human player would just nuke you if you tried that.
Hell, I’d even go so far as recommend that battleships be given the siege 100% bonus vs cities. The defense in cities has become such a slog to get through that anything less is just a waste of time
Cruisers: 1 range, access to range promotion as lvl 4 promotion shared by both paths
Battleship: 1 range, indirect fire, access to range promotion as lvl 4 promotion shared by both paths
Recommend new lvl 4 promotion: "Shore Bombardment" or "Salvo" or "GoogyWoops", 10 damage to units adjacent to target (essentially a splash I and II promotion)
At late modern, there are so many answers and counters to a battleship, that it will be a miracle if they can even get into 1 tile range. The late naval game has absolutely no answer for bombers, artillery, minefield, 3-range cities.
Broadside (+40% vs cities) promotion is a joke. should be at least 50%
It’s getting the point where “human wave” tactics or >2 aircraft carriers are about the only way to use a navy to take cities. A human player would just nuke you if you tried that.
Hell, I’d even go so far as recommend that battleships be given the siege 100% bonus vs cities. The defense in cities has become such a slog to get through that anything less is just a waste of time
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The real issue in naval fights imo is hit and run mechanics with tremendous amount of movement points. If we really like to prevent thi, looking also on amount of work needed to achieve this we can:
- delete "Can Move After Attacking" - this unfortunately won't prevent exploit after picking "Logistics" so:
- add @pineappledan 's option 2 - when you need to set up even with logistics you are tied to tile you set up. This would require copying code from vanilla (the least work from all 4 options) to new promotion. Old one is reserved for "Half Move in Foreing Lands" now.
- Why don't just swapping Battleship and Cruiser? Make Battleship range naval ship and Cruiser melee one and flavor is done.
- @Gazebo How can you be afraid of work after putting so much effort into only last update?
I admire your work on VP but we need to put some changes into those naval exploit. Setting range to 1 is just not enough.
How can you be afraid of work after putting so much effort into only last update?
Dude. Don't even.
G
lunker
Warlord
- Joined
- Oct 6, 2016
- Messages
- 277
Thanks to OP I keep saying the "deranged" pun in my head.
Idea:
Carrier pre-unit @ Radio, "Seaplane Tender": 1600/1920/1660 hammers/gold/faith. 4 mov. 40 cs. 45 rcs. 30 airdef. Interception 40. Hold 0 aircraft (up to 2 with promotions) 2 range. Can't move after firing. Covering Fire promo. Vulnerable to subs, melee, and ranged ships.
The Covering Fire promo fits the unit role perfectly. - 50% vs cities, but can pressure land units 2 tiles inland with the -15% cs and +20% def bonus.
Also adds some element of air-play in the sea, during a time when you start to see a good amount of aircraft and AA guns (can finally have Pearl-Harbor plays!)
It won't die to ironclads, but will to destroyers, subs, and cruisers. Pretty fair for a late modern-era unit.
We originally took out 2 range because of the oppressive dromons, so I think a 2 range unit in modern should be OK.
Another idea:
Make coastal tiles cost 2 movement for industrial ships and above.
I don't like the idea of "range available only for cruisers and up" because it seems a little arbitrary and you'd have to dig to find out why some units could get range and others couldn't.
I do like the idea of scrapping range as a level promo and only having it as a unique promo.
Idea:
Carrier pre-unit @ Radio, "Seaplane Tender": 1600/1920/1660 hammers/gold/faith. 4 mov. 40 cs. 45 rcs. 30 airdef. Interception 40. Hold 0 aircraft (up to 2 with promotions) 2 range. Can't move after firing. Covering Fire promo. Vulnerable to subs, melee, and ranged ships.
The Covering Fire promo fits the unit role perfectly. - 50% vs cities, but can pressure land units 2 tiles inland with the -15% cs and +20% def bonus.
Also adds some element of air-play in the sea, during a time when you start to see a good amount of aircraft and AA guns (can finally have Pearl-Harbor plays!)
It won't die to ironclads, but will to destroyers, subs, and cruisers. Pretty fair for a late modern-era unit.
We originally took out 2 range because of the oppressive dromons, so I think a 2 range unit in modern should be OK.
Another idea:
Make coastal tiles cost 2 movement for industrial ships and above.
I don't like the idea of "range available only for cruisers and up" because it seems a little arbitrary and you'd have to dig to find out why some units could get range and others couldn't.
I do like the idea of scrapping range as a level promo and only having it as a unique promo.
pineappledan
Deity
If you're looking for an IRL justification, there are two:
Cruiser is the first ranged ship after the rifling tech. It's the first ranged ship in-game using shells instead of cannonballs. It's also the first ranged ship in the game whose primary mode of battle was not the traditional line of battle.
Tekamthi
Emperor
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- Aug 12, 2016
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- 1,669
agreed the historical basis, at least in my mind, provides the model for range.. adding a descriptor to pedia entry should be enough i think to explain range promo availability?
in the pre- "cruiser" ships, historically, and generalizing great numbers of warships into single types.. the wooden sailships, even in age of sail, had much shorter effective range than most coal era "cruisers" ever did.. ie suddenly you could shoot 10 miles vs maybe 1 mile max on any wooden ship... by the era of "battleships", this range was 2x-3x greater again
sure you could probably make similar statements about range pre-gunpowder vs after, and suggest maybe that cannons vs dromon/galleass projectiles should be distinguished this way too.. but this was the basis of summer's range change, at least in part.. frigates can't have 2 base range cuz they're first that can enter ocean, and can easily hit-and-run unseen out at sea against an even slightly-behind opponent.. this makes the 1st-to-nav disparity is very strong, much more than any 3-range issue i think.. problem is, it still exists with high movement and attack-and-move ranged units.. though I agree with G that this problem is magnified by significant range disparity, if not necessarily 3-range itself
human focused 3-range cruiser navy is pretty unbalanced vs AI frigate navy, at mostly 1-range as well, almost as bad as the early frigate advantage. Battleship at 3-range vs 2-range cruiser though doesnt seem terrible in my play.. its strong but appropriately so. honestly 3-range battleships vs 2-range battleships is still pretty strong in hands of human vs ai, ie realistically human should never lose unless way outnumbered, but again this seems an acceptable advantage from what i've seen. If anything i'd rather see more 3-range ai battleships... a 1-range battleship just makes me giggle though.. imagine if that greek-fire dribbling dragon on the front of a dromon really could fire further than a modern warship's giant guns as it rolled off the factory line.
Anyway, G, if you're reflecting further on naval range.. i think you have the right idea, slightly wrong implementation (the effect you have here is almost same as what i've done by controlling promo, instead of base range, in my own mod). After discussing and reflecting on others' ideas this week, I think what we really need is to make sure any naval "range" is properly staged, keeping in mind especially pre-nav vs nav ocean ability... however its implemented, I think this design works well:
in the pre- "cruiser" ships, historically, and generalizing great numbers of warships into single types.. the wooden sailships, even in age of sail, had much shorter effective range than most coal era "cruisers" ever did.. ie suddenly you could shoot 10 miles vs maybe 1 mile max on any wooden ship... by the era of "battleships", this range was 2x-3x greater again
sure you could probably make similar statements about range pre-gunpowder vs after, and suggest maybe that cannons vs dromon/galleass projectiles should be distinguished this way too.. but this was the basis of summer's range change, at least in part.. frigates can't have 2 base range cuz they're first that can enter ocean, and can easily hit-and-run unseen out at sea against an even slightly-behind opponent.. this makes the 1st-to-nav disparity is very strong, much more than any 3-range issue i think.. problem is, it still exists with high movement and attack-and-move ranged units.. though I agree with G that this problem is magnified by significant range disparity, if not necessarily 3-range itself
human focused 3-range cruiser navy is pretty unbalanced vs AI frigate navy, at mostly 1-range as well, almost as bad as the early frigate advantage. Battleship at 3-range vs 2-range cruiser though doesnt seem terrible in my play.. its strong but appropriately so. honestly 3-range battleships vs 2-range battleships is still pretty strong in hands of human vs ai, ie realistically human should never lose unless way outnumbered, but again this seems an acceptable advantage from what i've seen. If anything i'd rather see more 3-range ai battleships... a 1-range battleship just makes me giggle though.. imagine if that greek-fire dribbling dragon on the front of a dromon really could fire further than a modern warship's giant guns as it rolled off the factory line.
Anyway, G, if you're reflecting further on naval range.. i think you have the right idea, slightly wrong implementation (the effect you have here is almost same as what i've done by controlling promo, instead of base range, in my own mod). After discussing and reflecting on others' ideas this week, I think what we really need is to make sure any naval "range" is properly staged, keeping in mind especially pre-nav vs nav ocean ability... however its implemented, I think this design works well:
- every ranged ship needs 1-range max until everyone can go in ocean.. range promo is too powerful early on ranged ships, especially for 1st-to-frigates.. there were no real wooden ships that could fire really far in-land anyway
- there should never be a 2-range diff between naval combatants (ie no 3's vs 1's.. this is broken for AI)
- something needs to be done about movement... naval cheese flavor is still very strong for high movement, ranged naval units (human england +GL), even all at base 1-range
- battleship must be effective and feel reasonably powerful in era of air, subs, missiles, minefield, etc.
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I mean, here's the deal. I can either
a.) Just give two units range and have a relatively balanced naval game post-industrial.
or
b.) 3d model and design an entire new unit, new artwork, etc. to fill in a slot that won't actually fix the range issue.
I don't really see any relevance for b, sorry.
G
Tekamthi
Emperor
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brainstorming further solutions to naval combat: again there's a close relationship with movement and range for attack-and-move ranged... on the turn itself that combat is performed in, you could say -1 range = - 2 movement
but hitting movement overall kills travel time across wide oceans, as has been validly pointed out by many... and G doesn't want any new code.. so here's a thought, completely speculative mind you:
some UU has "mystic blade" (Kris swordsman?) which then adds another promo post-combat.. the structure already exists in VP tables, and I think a new promo can use this format w/ simple DB entries from what I remember.
elsewhere in promo tables, I think I recall a temp-promo "timer"... through these mechanisms, could we get a -movement promo applied for x turns after combat (minus 1 or 2 moves, for 1 or 2 turns at most i'd say). If you can hit movement only on turns where combat is an issue, you're effectively almost doing the same thing as the -range change... but the AI only has to sort out a unit with less movement.. rather than figure out how to "setup", or whole new unit line altogether.. and I think we'd clean out some other cheese missed by the latest update.... ideally maybe something like this should apply only to attacker, but I think that would break the no-code rule
but hitting movement overall kills travel time across wide oceans, as has been validly pointed out by many... and G doesn't want any new code.. so here's a thought, completely speculative mind you:
some UU has "mystic blade" (Kris swordsman?) which then adds another promo post-combat.. the structure already exists in VP tables, and I think a new promo can use this format w/ simple DB entries from what I remember.
elsewhere in promo tables, I think I recall a temp-promo "timer"... through these mechanisms, could we get a -movement promo applied for x turns after combat (minus 1 or 2 moves, for 1 or 2 turns at most i'd say). If you can hit movement only on turns where combat is an issue, you're effectively almost doing the same thing as the -range change... but the AI only has to sort out a unit with less movement.. rather than figure out how to "setup", or whole new unit line altogether.. and I think we'd clean out some other cheese missed by the latest update.... ideally maybe something like this should apply only to attacker, but I think that would break the no-code rule
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pineappledan
Deity
Unless your target is a city, in which case it's more like -1 range = -4 movement
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2018
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* This is unrelated to the navy in the game *
I am enlisted in the US navy and I absolutely insist the navy is deranged as hell for more reasons than I could even list on a single post. fml
I am enlisted in the US navy and I absolutely insist the navy is deranged as hell for more reasons than I could even list on a single post. fml
lunker
Warlord
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- Oct 6, 2016
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- 277
I'm fine with the IRL reason. It's just from a gameplay perspective there's nothing to indicate that earlier units can't have range while later ones can. Just the other day I was wondering why I couldn't get range on my units and thought it was removed. Then it was magically available later on.
I understand, though I do think it would fix the range problem. It wasn't too long ago (was it?) that we got field cannons so I just assumed a new unit would be feasible.
Man what's the criticism of Gazebo for he practically made a damn good game to play...
On a side note just wish ygaemp would work right again *sigh*
But I actually like the de-ranging changed to naval units...
And Maya would not be a scientific culture Kuna would grant maybe faith and gold.
In real life archers balistae cannon would have 1 range... But it's not real life it's a silly game.
On a side note just wish ygaemp would work right again *sigh*
But I actually like the de-ranging changed to naval units...
And Maya would not be a scientific culture Kuna would grant maybe faith and gold.
In real life archers balistae cannon would have 1 range... But it's not real life it's a silly game.
Tekamthi
Emperor
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in case this idea is of interest, I've managed to implement a "first draft" with just a tiny bit of .lua:
Spoiler :
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BiteInTheMark
Deity
Easy solution:
Give cruiser and all ships past this one 2 range and a promotion, which reduce the range, if the unit move. 2 range without moving is worthless in navy battles in open ocean. Staying at coast for atleast one turn makes your ship vulnerable in first place, but once established, you can clear the beachhead like IRL heavy barrage fire from coastal ships.
Give cruiser and all ships past this one 2 range and a promotion, which reduce the range, if the unit move. 2 range without moving is worthless in navy battles in open ocean. Staying at coast for atleast one turn makes your ship vulnerable in first place, but once established, you can clear the beachhead like IRL heavy barrage fire from coastal ships.
