"Desert Flower"

Pannonius

Reconquistador
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
2,611
Location
Caliphate of Europistan
The truth about FGM? I doubt you'll find anyone on this forum that needs to be convinced that FGM is a horrible thing. A bit like:

"This just in: Murder is bad!"
 
The truth about FGM? I doubt you'll find anyone on this forum that needs to be convinced that FGM is a horrible thing. A bit like:

"This just in: Murder is bad!"

We have a few Egyptians here, and female circumcision is a well-rooted and extremely widely practiced tradition in Egypt, as in most of the sudan and the horn. It's an African tradition, not an Islamic one; people, even many Muslims there, often lose sight of that and equate them.
 
The truth about FGM? I doubt you'll find anyone on this forum that needs to be convinced that FGM is a horrible thing. A bit like:

"This just in: Murder is bad!"
So we shouldn't disscus this matter?
 
There's no such thing as right and wrong because morals are all relative!!!!!
 
I recall largely successfully defending FGM in the Model United Nations as Uganda, and Saudi Arabia respectively...good times...good times...
 
We have a few Egyptians here, and female circumcision is a well-rooted and extremely widely practiced tradition in Egypt, as in most of the sudan and the horn. It's an African tradition, not an Islamic one; people, even many Muslims there, often lose sight of that and equate them.
And as far as I understand they belong to the somewhat westernized upperclass. There is a big difference between city-egyptians and provincial-egyptians. I highly doubt they support it.

So we shouldn't disscus this matter?

We could discuss how it could be stopped, but I don't really think there is a point in discussing whether it's good or bad, which was what your OP seemed like it was trying to do.
 
Talking about stopping this is pointless because it won't be successful as long as the authorities are lax on the issue and the people practicing it don't think its the least bit bad. Sooner or later the younger generations will grow apart from this tradition and instability and war will only prolong that. If theres anything that needs to be done it's to separate Islam from the practice as it is sure to raise only more anger at Islam regardless of what's real.
 
We have a few Egyptians here, and female circumcision is a well-rooted and extremely widely practiced tradition in Egypt, as in most of the sudan and the horn. It's an African tradition, not an Islamic one; people, even many Muslims there, often lose sight of that and equate them.

One of the simplest things we need to do is stop calling it "female circumcision". What a ridiculous term.
 
And as far as I understand they belong to the somewhat westernized upperclass. There is a big difference between city-egyptians and provincial-egyptians. I highly doubt they support it.

Data says the opposite.

Fgm_map.gif


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

The dark brown is >90% prevalence. I promise you, it is practiced by the vast majority of the population, despite being technically "illegal." Not that Egyptians have ever cared what their government says is illegal and not.

We could discuss how it could be stopped, but I don't really think there is a point in discussing whether it's good or bad, which was what your OP seemed like it was trying to do.

I don't know that there is a way for us to stop it. The best thing we can hope to do is to legalize it, so it can be performed in hospitals by licensed professionals under safe conditions; it is an incredibly dangerous procedure, and the rate of infection is very high, to say nothing of the physical and mental trauma of a woman having her clitoris cut off.

Talking about stopping this is pointless because it won't be successful as long as the authorities are lax on the issue and the people practicing it don't think its the least bit bad. Sooner or later the younger generations will grow apart from this tradition and instability and war will only prolong that. If theres anything that needs to be done it's to separate Islam from the practice as it is sure to raise only more anger at Islam regardless of what's real.

There are many Islamic scholars who are aware of such a need, but they are often shouted down by their conservative contemporaries.

One of the simplest things we need to do is stop calling it "female circumcision". What a ridiculous term.

The WHO uses the term Female Genital Mutilation, and classifies FGM into four major types[21] (see Diagram 1), although there is some debate as to whether all common forms of FGC fit into these four categories, as well as issues with the reliability of reported data.[22]

Type I
The WHO defines Type I FGM as the partial or total removal of the clitoris (clitoridectomy),and/or the prepuce removal clitoral hood, see Diagram 1B. When it is important to distinguish between the major variations of Type I mutilation, the following subdivisions are proposed: Type Ia, removal of the clitoral hood or prepuce only; Type Ib, removal of the clitoris with the prepuce.[21] In the context of women who seek out labiaplasty, Stern opposes removal of the clitoral hood and points to potential scarring and nerve damage.[23]


[edit] Type II
The WHO's definition of Type II FGM is "partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora, with or without excision of the labia majora (excision). When it is important to distinguish between the major variations that have been documented, the following subdivisions are proposed: Type IIa, removal of the labia minora only; Type IIb, partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora; Type IIc, partial or total removal of the clitoris, the labia minora and the labia majora. Note also that, in French, the term ‘excision’ is often used as a general term covering all types of female genital mutilation.[21]


[edit] Type III: Infibulation with excision
The WHO defines Type III FGC as narrowing of the vaginal orifice with creation of a covering seal by cutting and appositioning the labia minora and/or the labia majora, with or without excision of the clitoris (infibulation)."[1] It is the most extensive form of FGM, and accounts for about 10% of all FGM procedures described from Africa.[24] Infibulation is also known as "pharaonic circumcision."[25]

In a study of infibulation in the Horn of Africa, Pieters observed that the procedure involves extensive tissue removal of the external genitalia, including all of the labia minora and the inside of the labia majora. The labia majora are then held together using thorns or stitching. In some cases the girl's legs have been tied together for two to six weeks, to prevent her from moving and to allow the healing of the two sides of the vulva. Nothing remains but the walls of flesh from the pubis down to the anus, with the exception of an opening at the inferior portion of the vulva to allow urine and menstrual blood to pass through, see Diagram 1D. Generally, a practitioner deemed to have the necessary skill carries out this procedure, and a local anesthetic is used. However, when carried out "in the bush," infibulation is often performed by an elderly matron or midwife of the village, with no anesthesia used.[26]

A reverse infibulation can be performed to allow for sexual intercourse or when undergoing labor, or by female relatives, whose responsibility it is to inspect the wound every few weeks and open it some more if necessary. During childbirth, the enlargement is too small to allow vaginal delivery, and so the infibulation is opened completely and may be restored after delivery. Again, the legs are sometimes tied together to allow the wound to heal. When childbirth takes place in a hospital, the surgeons may preserve the infibulation by enlarging the vagina with deep episiotomies. Afterwards, the patient may insist that her vulva be closed again.[26]

This practice increases the occurrence of medical complications due to a lack of modern medicine and surgical practices.[citation needed]

A five-year study of 300 women and 100 men in Sudan found that "sexual desire, pleasure, and orgasm are experienced by the majority of women who have been subjected to this extreme sexual mutilation, in spite of their being culturally bound to hide these experiences."[27]

Most advocates of the practice continue to perform the procedure in adherence to standards of beauty that are very different from those in the west. Many infibulated women will contend that the pleasure their partners receive due to this procedure is a definitive part of a successful marriage and enjoyable sex life.[citation needed]


[edit] Type IV: Other types
There are other forms of FGM, collectively referred to as Type IV, that may not involve tissue removal. The WHO defines Type IV FGC as "all other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for non-medical purposes, for example, pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterization."[21] This includes a diverse range of practices, such as pricking the clitoris with needles, burning or scarring the genitals as well as ripping or tearing of the vagina.[21] Type IV is found primarily among isolated ethnic groups as well as in combination with other types.[citation needed]
[edit]
 
Sorry, I thought I had typed it out; I must have copied on top of it or something. :blush:

My point was that circumcision only refers to one of the procedures which are classified as gential cutting. Circumcision is the most mild form, where only part of the clitoris is cut. As you can see above, genital mutilations can concern much more than just that. It is by no means humane, right, or acceptable, and is just as mysogynist as the rest of it, but in the big picture of what could be done, it is fairly mild.
 
I maintain that it's dishonest to call any of it "circumcision". It's not comparable to the procedure performed on males.
 
I maintain that it's dishonest to call any of it "circumcision". It's not comparable to the procedure performed on males.

I would imagine that there is no cutting you can do on female genitals that isn't beneficial to her and not evil. So they are basically quite similar only the genitals of both sexes are quite different so it comes down to pain and such stuff.
 
Genital multiation in general is bad. Of course female multiation is far more atrocious. Those who perform it should be treated as felons on the same level as rapists, perhaps a higher level.

Off topic, this thread reminded me of that song by Sting.
 
I maintain that it's dishonest to call any of it "circumcision". It's not comparable to the procedure performed on males.
It's comparable just much worse (FGM).

Any unnecessary surgery on a baby's genitals without anesthesia resulting in destroying millions of nerve endings perminantly is barbaric to say the least. As I acknowledged FGM is far, far worse but both are reprehensible.

If a person wants to have their genitals carved into a different shape they should be allowed to. After age 18. To make this choice for an infant is rather sick.
 
Data says the opposite.

Fgm_map.gif


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_genital_cutting

The dark brown is >90% prevalence. I promise you, it is practiced by the vast majority of the population, despite being technically "illegal." Not that Egyptians have ever cared what their government says is illegal and not.
No data doesn't. I'm still quite sure that those few egyptians we have on this forum belong to the last 10%. It's a moot point anyway, since they aren't very prominent, and it's been some time since they posted (afaik).

I don't know that there is a way for us to stop it. The best thing we can hope to do is to legalize it, so it can be performed in hospitals by licensed professionals under safe conditions; it is an incredibly dangerous procedure, and the rate of infection is very high, to say nothing of the physical and mental trauma of a woman having her clitoris cut off.
Ofcause it can be stopped. It won't be easy and quick though. Legalizing it is stupid in my opinion. When people don't follow the law, you don't abandon it, you enforce it.
 
It's been such a long tradition in that part of Africa it's like the women just accepted it now. What we need are not laws, but rather empowerment, education, and, while we're at it, medical knowledge and safer practices for the practitioners so that there's a lower rate of infections and such. Let's face it, eradicating a thousand years old practice cannot be achieved in mere decades.

A side note, Cheezy's map shows that the rate of FGM around the Nile Delta - ie by far the most urbanised and populated part of Egypt - is significantly lower than those of other, mostly rural areas of Egypt.
 
Its a disgusting custom, reminds me of footbinding which happens in China. I happen to think circumcision as a disgusting custom as well, so femal circumcision is appropriate from my perspective.
 
Its a disgusting custom, reminds me of footbinding which happens in China. I happen to think circumcision as a disgusting custom as well, so femal circumcision is appropriate from my perspective.

Now that you mentioned footbinding...

It was mostly done to women of higher class. Peasants IIRC for the most part do not widely practice the custom. It began to phase out around 1870s. The Republic banned it in 1911, but still continues until the PRC finally outlaw it in 1949. By that time in most parts of the country the custom had been extinct.

So, a custom, dating back around 1000 years practiced by only a selected group of people took around a century to eradicate. It would take much longer for FGM to go away. In the mean time, there needs to be proper education for practitioners so they know for example how to prevent risk of infection, or how minimise pain both during the surgery and after.
 
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