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Design: World Spells

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Fall from Heaven' started by Kael, Dec 12, 2007.

  1. Kael

    Kael Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Every civilization gets a world spell in "Shadow". This spell can only be used once per game and has far reaching effects. Some are available from the begining of the game and some have a tech prereq before they can be used. In all cases some AI logic has been written to get them to use the spell at an appropruate time.

    We will need a little help balancing here. The effects are significant and are incrediably varied, so as you can understand balance is going to be an issue. As always remember that we balance by the Civ (are the Calabim equal to the Luchuirp) not by the feature (so we aren't attempting to make the Calabim world spell equal to the Luchuirp world spell).
    Amurites- Arcane Lacuna: All the players Arcane units gain 1xp per upgraded mana node in the world, all mana nodes revert to raw mana.
    Balseraphs- Revelry: Initiaties a Golden Age that lasts twice as long as normal.
    Bannor- Rally: Creates a Demagog in every Bannor city and on every Bannor Town improvement, only usueable during a crusade
    Calabim- River of Blood: All Calabim cites get +2 population, all non-Calabim cities get -2 population (to a minimum of 1 population)
    Clan of Embers- For the Horde: 50% of the barbarian orc units convert to the Players control
    Doviello- Wild Hunt: Creates a wolf unit for every combat unit the player controls, the wolfes strength is based on the matching combat units strength
    Elohim- Sanctuary: Kicks all non-team units out of their borders and makes all non-team unable to enter the players lands for 30 turns
    Grigori- Ardor: Resets the players Great People counter
    Hippus- Warcry: Grants all combat units +1 strength, blitz, +1 movement and has a 5% chance per turn of wearing off
    Illians- (won’t be added until “ice”)
    Infernal- Hyborems Whisper: Allows Hyborem to take control of a city with the Ashen Veil religion
    Khazad- Motherlode: Gives the player 10gp per mine they control
    Kuriotates- Legends: Gives a huge culture boost to all the players cities and settlements
    Lanun- Raging Seas: Acts as a Tsunami for the entire world, but it won't damage Lanun ships or improvements
    Ljosalfar- March of the Trees: All forests in the players empire turn into Treants for 3 turns, when the Treants die they return to forests in the plot (if it can support a forest)
    Luchuirp- Gifts of Nantosuelta: Create a Golden Hammer equipment in each of the players cities (Golden Hammers can be picked up by a unit to boost his strength, used to finish a building, or given to a citizen to create a great engineer specialist)
    Malakim- Religious Fervor: Creates a priest of the players state religion in each of the players cities with that state religion, these priests start with +1 xp for every city the player has with that religion
    Mercurians- Divine Retribution: Does damage to all Undead and Demonic units in the world
    Sheaim- Worldbreak: Does damage to all units in cities, forest fires start around the world
    Sidar- Into the Mist: All the players combat units become Hidden (aka: invisible until they attack or cast a spell)
    Svartalfar- Veil of Night: All the players combat units gain Hidden Nationality​
     
  2. MagisterCultuum

    MagisterCultuum Great Sage

    Joined:
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    So, how are World Spells actually cast? Are they available to any of the civs units, or to specific units like like mages? or are these spells actually rituals? or is their casting mechanism completely different?


    Spell Critiques:
    Spoiler :

    Amurites- Arcane Lacuna: Sounds interesting, but i seems odd that it effects all civs evenly, unlike most of the spells.

    Balseraphs- Revelry:

    Bannor- Rally: This seems like the weakest one. Not only is it limited to being used while using a civic I never really cared for, but its effect is also about the same as a passive ability the civ already had. Also, free units isn't typically such a good thing, since they cost upkeep. I would rather have small elite armies any day.

    Calabim- River of Blood: Seems a little weak. As the Calabim, I usually want my rivals cities to be as large as possible--so I can capture them and feast until they reach the minimum size (or, in my modded version, feasting until there is no one left in the city, at which point the spell razes it).

    Clan of Embers- For The Horde: Nice. Maybe the units should come with some cities too. Can this spell convert Orthus to your civ? I think that should be possible. That would be the best use of this spell, imo.

    Doviello- Wild Hunt:

    Elohim- Sanctuary: Nice. Combined with Corindales spell, this means the Elohim can be invulnerable for 40 turns. Sounds great for an Altar or Tower victory (not that I ever allow those victory conditions personally)

    Grigori- Ardor: Nice. (when you say "players" do you mean player's or players'?)

    Hippus- Warcry: Not bad.

    Illians- (won’t be added until “ice”): I'm hoping this means that it includes an improved AoI-like Blizzard event, which you feel you need more time to perfect.

    Infernal- Hyborems Whisper: Nice, but it probably needs to also create some units to guard the city, and existing buildings/culture/wonders should remain intact. I immagine the AV holy city is the most likely target.

    Khazad- Motherlode: Not a huge fan. There is already a motherload event in the mod (assuming you haven't removed it) which gives exrta gold for mines. What I think this should do is cause all or most of the peaks in Khadad territory to gain mines (possibly quarries for a few of them) and to randomly create gold/iron/copper/mithril/gems (/stone/shuet stone?) on many of these tiles. (I also think dwarven workers (or possible any unit with dwarven) should be able to move impassible, and that the bWater tag on mountains should be changed from 1 to 0 to allow them to build roads to connest these new resources)

    Kuriotates- Legends: Honestly, I don't think the Kuriotates need more culture boosts. They already tend to control more territory than they can defend.

    Lanun- Raging Seas: Nice, but would be much nicer if Tsunami could still turn land into water. Even if a normal Tsunami spell can't, I think this spell should have a (very) small chance to turn each land tile into a coast.

    Ljosalfar- March of the Trees: Nice, but I'm not sure that I like the part about them turning to forests when they die. Did you mean when the 3 turns are up, or when they are defeated? If you mean the latter, then it sounds hard to implement (unless all treants turn to forests upon their death). I think it might be more interesting if these (or maybe all) treants were given the ability a spell that sacrifices the unit in order to plant a forest in an unforested tile, or to make a forested tile become an ancient forest. Also, Ancient forests should either produce more treants then normal forests, or they should create significaantly stronger treants. Also, I'm worried about what will happen to elven cottages/farms/etc on forested tiles. Presumably the forests here would disappear, but, since you can't plant forests on tile with such improvements, will the Treant's deaths put these forests back? If not, then I think that needs to be changed. Perhaps there should not be a check to see if the tile could normally support a forest. I would live to use this to make my cities forested.

    (I think that religions too, not just civs, should have world spells. The March of the Trees sounds like it might be a better FoL world spell than a Ljosalfar one.)

    Luchuirp- Gifts of Nantosuelta: sounds alright

    Malakim- Religious Fervor:

    Mercurians- Divine Retribution: Sounds too similar to Glory Everlasting, but weaker.

    Sheaim- Worldbreak: It would be nice if this would also create "dimensional rift" terrain improvements of various types randomly throughout the world. These would create standard summons for the Barbarian State (if there is a summoning unit on the tile, possible under that unit's civ's control instead?), but without any limitations on duration. (I was actually thinking Dimensional Rift would make a good dimensional 2 or 3 spell too, in which case a unit with that promotions should be required in order for a civ to control the units spawned.) (It might be good for the units spawned by the rifts associated with law/life/other good spheres to be under Basium's control instead of the barbs')

    Sidar- Into the Mist: I may have to wit until the article on the Shades, or possibly until I actually get the game, to know how I think this would work.

    Svartalfar- Veil of Night: Sounds nice.



    p.s. Is it possible to remove the "once per game" limit? Some of these sound like they would be really fun to abuse multiple times. I'm not asking that the limit be removed, I just want to know if I could mod it that way just to see what its like.
     
  3. Civkid1991

    Civkid1991 in shade of poison trees

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    i like the Ljosalfar the most... has a mystic feel to it
     
  4. Good Sauce

    Good Sauce (TM)

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    All the effects seem really interesting. At first I was dubious these would be any more interesting than wonders, but they all seem to have the ability to really swing the game in your favor. How is the AI at using these?
     
  5. [NWO]_Valis

    [NWO]_Valis A bad kitty!

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    Only one big no-no here:

    It sounds great but only if they would be FoL. Suposedly I wat to play my Ljosalfar as AV or OO in my game, then it becomes counter-flavourful. This world spell would be very nice as a religious world spel.
     
  6. loocas

    loocas Chieftain

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    wow, that Lanun one is exciting. Grigori's Ardor affects all players?

    Nevermind, I get it. That counter.
     
  7. Nimbus

    Nimbus Chieftain

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    sorry, double post
     
  8. Nimbus

    Nimbus Chieftain

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    When the Treants go to war I would be safe to assume the improvements that had been in them would be destroyed? And when the 3 turns is up the become trees were they currently stand? So vast tracks of elven land could now be missing both their trees and improvements at the end of the spell? Or am I reading into this wrong?
     
  9. grumpylad

    grumpylad Chieftain

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    I took it to mean that a plot would yield a treant but remain forest and when they die just become another forest (ala Helms Deep)
     
  10. Arqane

    Arqane Chieftain

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    Yeah, I took it as creating treants in the same way they're created in Ancient Forests now. Only it's 100% chance for all forested squares to spawn treants. So if none die and they all move, you've doubled your forest area.
     
  11. [NWO]_Valis

    [NWO]_Valis A bad kitty!

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    ...turn into Treants... not spawn.
     
  12. Celeborn

    Celeborn Silver-Death

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    I like... I'm kinda worried 'bout the March of the Trees possibly causing system deadlock... I don't know about you but when I'm playing a tree-hugger game pretty much every single square within my borders is covered in trees of one sort or another. That would be a lot of treants.
     
  13. Calavente

    Calavente Richard's voice

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    seems kinda kool :
    I try to take into account the strength of the whole civ in my comments but I don't know how shadow will change civ strengths so when I find a spell underpowered I may really be wrong...
    Spoiler :
    Amurites- Arcane Lacuna: all players' arcan units or all amurite arcan units?.
    Balseraphs- Revelry: kool
    Bannor- Rally: kool but maybe upkeep issues...
    Calabim- River of Blood: ok.
    Clan of Embers- For the Horde: much less useful mid-late game than early game... late is mostly demons barbs, with few un-owned lands for orcish barbs to spawn.
    Doviello- Wild Hunt: kool
    Elohim- Sanctuary: powerful kool :)
    Grigori- Ardor: grigori's counters ? or all players' counter
    Hippus- Warcry: 5% chance is big... in 5 turns, half your invading army may have lost the promo. (maybe a round 20turns is better than 5% chance) or maybe if repeatable :50-100 turns or sacrifying a lvl 8-10 mounted unit ?
    Illians- (won’t be added until “ice”)
    Infernal- Hyborems Whisper: 1 city is few, maybe repeatable every 50-100t, hyborem does'nt starts really powerful especially as AI,
    Khazad- Motherlode: no idea of the mine density on khazad games... my last game would have brought me less than 1000 gp, current game, 1000gp is 1 turn at 0% science... maybe it is not really powerfull. but khazad are... ok
    Kuriotates- Legends: already a lot of culture for kurios..
    Lanun- Raging Seas: kool... depending on current tsunami spell action.. can it have a chance of turning land into sea if no ressource/no unit on the plot ??
    Ljosalfar- March of the Trees: ubercool ..; but : maybe more FoL than Ljos ; people will have a LOT of upkeep for 3turns, what of ancient forests? , production (forest & ancient forests) and food (ancient forest) will go down during the time the forest is awaken ... but it is really the ultimate invasion crusher.. what happens when ennemy is on forest in ljos land ? what happen when trent dies fighting : a forest slot disappear ? plus it would be a nightmare to play those 3 turns... 500+ units to move each turn ... what happen to forest cottage... ? coz' you can raze, bloom and rebuild every mine/farm to get forested tiles abck but razing a forested town will make you lose 60+turns of improvement
    Luchuirp- Gifts of Nantosuelta: kool
    Malakim- Religious Fervor: cool
    Mercurians- Divine Retribution: percentage damage ? or pure damage ? can some undead unit/demon really die ? or do they all stay alive ? if no unit die it may be not really powerful especially as basium is not really powerfull.. it would only give a 3 turns break / advantage over enemy civs, but huge boost against the horsmen...if you can wait until the 4 of us are in play.
    Sheaim- Worldbreak: cool
    Sidar- Into the Mist: cool : is hidden a promo (as forest sleath was) or is it a 1 time promo as immortal or as treetop defense was ??
    Svartalfar- Veil of Night: cool
    thanks for all those pretty toys to play with :D
     
  14. it-ogo

    it-ogo Hedgehog

    Joined:
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    First glance impression. Recommendations underlined.
    Spoiler :
    Amurites: Maybe revert only Amurites controlled mana nodes? Otherwise they may help somebody build the Tower. And if AI will necessarily call it sooner or later it will be strongly exploitable by human rival.
    Balseraphs: Very strong but good.
    Bannor- Rally: Fresh meat! :) Acceptable.
    Calabim- River of Blood: Again fresh meat! :lol: Acceptable.
    Clan of Embers- For the Horde: We'll see.
    Doviello- Wild Hunt: We'll see. Overall Doviello still need a boost.
    Elohim- Sanctuary: Good.
    Grigori- Ardor: Good! Maybe too strong.
    Hippus- Warcry: Acceptable. Maybe decrease percentage?
    Infernal- Hyborems Whisper: Very good for Infernals but usually very bed for his summoner. :) If you want to destroy the world, do it yourself. That is not so good. Maybe let him gain ANY city with simultaneous converting it into AV and even give it AV holy city status. And granting all Inf. initial buildings. And of cause strong relationsip penalty with robbed nation. BTW Whispering Hyborem should be something impressive...
    Khazad- Motherlode: Too weak. Seems much less then one Great Merchant.
    Kuriotates- Legends: Seems too specific. And attaches them too much to cultural victory. Maybe acceptable... but that is not what they really need.
    Lanun- Raging Seas: With such spell Lanun should start as evil. Maybe better is just to destroy all rival ships and sea improvements? (And then sell everybody sea resources for money? ;) )
    Ljosalfar- March of the Trees: There are many nuances. Basically this is an extremal defensive action - OK as it is. But then you may loose some forest because of the travelled or killed treants - that is a pity. Second, these 3 turns are strong strike on your cities especially if you have Guardian of the nature. This may be really painful. Maybe leave forest - not turn into but produce new treants. With new forest created after their deaths. And of cause allow forest setting over elven improvements. Variant: make it religious spell (according to MagisterCultuum) and produce treants only by antient forests turning them into forests. BTW it is neseccary anyway to allow plant forest over elven improvements. Otherwise player is obliged to destroy impr, plant forest and build impr manually - very boring.
    Luchuirp- Gifts of Nantosuelta: We'll see. BTW proposition not on the spell: let any golem be conserved in a city, i.e. temporarily immobilized and turned into 0 strength (and maybe make hidden) for some amount of gold with making it free of fee on the time of conservation. It should be a great strategical variation - and more flavor.
    Malakim- Religious Fervor: OK
    Mercurians- Divine Retribution: Very weak as Mercurians are theirselfs. :(
    Sheaim- Worldbreak: Acceptable.
    Sidar- Into the Mist: We'll see. Completely invisible? And what about pillage? :lol:
    Svartalfar- Veil of Night: Very good!
     
  15. JDexter

    JDexter Chieftain

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    Very cool ideas! I'm impressed again by the teams genius.

    All the changes make me want to play at least 10 civs in my first game of Shadow. Damn! :D
     
  16. Demus

    Demus Chieftain

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    4 things i'm worried about:
    1. the amurites spell really depends on world size. If you're playing a duel map, the spell will hardly have any effect, but if you're on huge you'll get 50 level 10 mages instantly.
    2. Clan of embers: does this include orthus?
    3. Khazad: too weak. besides that, by the time you've reached the level where the spell gets interesting, you're already full or overflowing anyway. i'd have preferred + 1-2 commerce per mine for x turns.
    4. The Ljos: Imagine a forest turning into a treeant while there was a town under it. Then the treeant dies attacking an attacking army (which is when this should be used), or the treeant can't make it back in time. Now you have to raze the town, cast bloom, and wait another 100 turns before the tile is back to it's former function! could be countered by allowing bloom to be cast over elven improvements (even though this may be tough to implement, not the actual casting, but to prevent it from working over mines etc.).
     
  17. Marksman77

    Marksman77 Aethernaut

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    Cool new mechanics! World Spells are going to give even more depth to the game.

    Yeah, I always have the same problem when starting a new FfH game and it seems that Shadow will make decisions even harder :crazyeye:
     
  18. formless blob

    formless blob Chieftain

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    Some of these spells are game changing, so you should be careful that they don't have a negative impact on the game experience. I am particularly worried about the lanun one, as you would know that all your coast cities has a 10% chance of being wiped out at some point in the game. That would suck for a builder like me (maybe change the tsunami effect? It could function more like a nuke perhaps).
     
  19. it-ogo

    it-ogo Hedgehog

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    Yeah, with such spell Lanun should start as evil. Maybe better is just to destroy all rival ships and sea improvements? (And then sell everybody sea resources for money? ;)
     
  20. Jono

    Jono Chieftain

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    The Lanun spell is awesome for multiplayer games. Maybe make it so that a tsunami cast by a Lanun archmage doesn't inflict any damage on Lanun units?
     

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