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Despair, Courage, & Hope in an Age of Environmental Turmoil

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Murky, Nov 10, 2013.

  1. Murky

    Murky Chieftain

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    Did Australia's carbon tax have a equitably distributed dividend to help people with their energy transition?
     
  2. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    Ok, humor me here. What are the proposals using to attach a dollar amount to making the price of carbon "closer to its true cost?"
     
  3. Murky

    Murky Chieftain

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  4. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    Would you be willing to tease out how they settled on that number?
     
  5. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    I quite like the point-source tax, honestly. It requires decently less bureaucracy than a cap'n'trade (which is better on paper, but I doubt in practice). Balancing it with a citizen's dividend cheque completest the circle.

    People could theoretically use it to completely offset their increased fuel prices, but they won't. There will be a strong incentive to reduce fossil fuel consumption at all stages. The money is ... money, and people will spend it according to their perceived benefits.

    What people have to remember is the projected economic damages associated with future climate change are not really all that high in a per capita sense. The cost of any mitigation efforts really should never be all that perceivable, either, or else something is going wrong.

    AGW-associated changes are projected to cause individualized suffering in a hard-to-detect kinda way. Kinda like smog pollution causing cancer. I mean, it happens, we know it happens, but we cannot pinpoint any specific cancer to smog. And there's certainly a net economic damage done (in aggregate). But, this aggregate damage is really not all that much when spread out.

    When it comes to farmers (non-Bangladeshi), I think topsoil loss or other issues are going to be much more obvious than climate change issues. Bangladeshi farmers might see their aquifers salted with seawater, so, yeah, that's gonna suck. The net damage done to the price of global grain prices? Somewhat insignificant from our perspective.
     
  6. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    Over irrigation mixed with urban/industrial water hedonism, I still think that one is on the horizon. Least in this country.
     
  7. Murky

    Murky Chieftain

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    I have no idea how they came up with it. Maybe you should ask them?
     
  8. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    No, that's a fair enough answer. I'm just mystified as to how they would go about it.
     
  9. El_Machinae

    El_Machinae Colour vision since 2018 Retired Moderator

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern_Review

    Though, that specific number needs to be debated further, I think.
    $30 per tonne really is peanuts, all told. It totally fits in my 'barely noticed' stance (supra)
     
  10. peter grimes

    peter grimes ... Moderator

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    Smells like fascists wrote the policy :mischief:
     
  11. classical_hero

    classical_hero In whom I trust

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    This the difference.


    See how different the Arctic is in comparison to the rest of the world. It sticks out like a saw thumb.
    http://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2013/nov/13/global-warming-underestimated-by-half?CMP=twt_gu
    It is far to early to say this is definitive. Are their flaws to point out in their methodology?

    http://www.rap.ucar.edu/~djohnson/satellite/coverage.html#polar
    So just using uncertain data to fill in uncertain data. Not a good way to come to a conclusion.
     
  12. Dale

    Dale Chieftain

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  13. Murky

    Murky Chieftain

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  14. peter grimes

    peter grimes ... Moderator

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    You didn't seem to understand the stuff on that page, otherwise you would have realized that they're saying "the satellites orbit the poles, but it doesn't look like that from this particular map projection. Here are some more accurate projections, which show the detailed coverage of the pole these satellites achieve:

    North Pole:



    South Pole:
     
  15. Dale

    Dale Chieftain

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    Because the Govt didn't realise that everything would rise. They just assumed only electricity would.

    They didn't cost it properly.

    Plus, the Govt blatantly lied. They went to the election and specifically stated "there will be no carbon tax under our Govt". Then they had to make a deal with the Devil (Greens) to ensure enough numbers in Parliament and brought in a carbon tax.

    The compensation was so heavily weighted to income that lower income earners were receiving 2-3 times their carbon tax cost, and middle income earners received half their carbon tax cost and high income earners received none.
     
  16. timtofly

    timtofly One Day

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    Poor people rely on carbon usage more than money. Rich people rely on poor people both for money and carbon usage. Seems pretty reasonable to me.
     
  17. Dale

    Dale Chieftain

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    What absolute bull!

    I worked my ass off at school to get good marks and then two Uni degrees. Then for 18 years working jobs pushing to increase my skills, job level and salary. Basically, I've spent the last 24 years working hard to get to the position I'm in, and I get repaid by being screwed over.

    There's nothing reasonable about wealth redistribution (unless your one of the lazy ass poor people).
     
  18. Murky

    Murky Chieftain

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    It seems a bit selfish and petty to put your own desire to retain wealth above the need to take steps to address climate change. I mean the wealthy in general. If you make a six figure salary every year and already have a lot of money and property is it really so much to ask that you chip in a bit more than someone who has barely enough to live on?
     
  19. Crezth

    Crezth 話說天下大勢分久必合合久必分

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    looks like we got us one o' them self-reliant freedom-tarians
     
  20. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

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    My lazy ass poor person? Huh? Do you want to buy him? Strong musculature, good teeth, doesn't require much whipping.
     

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