desperate for help on emperor level -- vanilla

[wdepner]

Hi Everybody,

My game has frankly stalled. Some history. I win easily on regent and frequently on monarch. But my move to emperor has been frustrating.
Here is the basic premise of my game.

1. I generally pick a civ with one of those traits: scientific, industrious or militaristic.

2.My first research priority is the wheel, with an eye towards building an army of horsemen that I can unleash in late AA, early MA. I rarely build defensive units and invest a lot of resources into libraries and universities, so I can keep up or race ahead on the tech tree, with an eye towards staying ahead in the military department. But I rarely wage war during the ME, as I usually go for a scientific or diplomatic win (with the help of a GL). I have yet to win on culture.

3. I trade, trade, trade, including maps. (Is this a mistake)

But here is what happens on Emperor.

1. Obviously, the AI has a head start. So I respond by trying to crank out as many settlers as quickly as possible, generally without a settler factory. (It usually takes me about 10 turns to build a settler). But then I fall behind in building up my military, so I get picked on all the time. This becomes a real problem when I do not have horses. If that is the case, what should I do instead? Archers? Swordsman? Should I build barracks?

2. I have changed my science spending (setting it to zero most of the time), yet I have found that this works for only so long. As the game goes on, the AI appears less and less willing to trade. So I fall behind in the science race, with obvious consequences for my military.

I have changed my research priority, now going for writing > republic. But speaking off that, switching to republic kills my economy. It sounds strange, but my GTP just drops as soon as I go to republic. Why does this happen?

3. The Forbidden Palace remains elusive, unless I have a GL.

4. What about culture? I have read numerous recommendations not to worry about culture. But my cities flip-flop faster than Rudy G.

5. This may sound strange, but I fear the AI more on emperor than any other level. Should I?

I do not want to sound like a whiner. But the last couple of weeks have been really frustrating from a civ-perspective. I find myself quitting games out of pure frustration and anger. Most recently, I spent hours on one game, re-setting it to 4000 B.C. numerous times. But even foreknowledge of the map did not help. Help!!!

Thank you.

Cheers,

Wolf

P.S. I have tried to review GOTM games, but they just appear as gibberish when I open them. (I am writing this from work -- don't tell my boss -- on a Mac. I play on PC.) So I would really appreciate it if the experts on this site, send me a written move-by-move synopsis of one their games.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

You should fear the AI more on emperor than on Monarch or Regent - it's stronger!

I recommend a couple of things:

A) spend the shields to build a granary for a settler factory. You will get more settlers out that way. Why?

Let's take an example - you are building settlers every 10 turns, which implies you have 4 extra food - say, an irrigated cow.

If you just build settlers and you start at turn #1, you get a setter on turn:

10
20
30
40
50

If you build a granary and it takes, say, 15 turns, then you can build a setter every 6 turns.

This gets your first settler out on turn 21 (you are a settler and a turn behind!!). You get your second out on turn 27, third on 33 and fourth on turn 39!!! By the 4th settler, you are AHEAD!!! And, in fact, I think you are catching up to the AI, who needs less food to build each settler.

At this point, your other cities can start specializing. You can build barracks, to build military. Ones with food bonuses can build workers. ones with good commerce (on a river or coast or with commerce bonuses) can build libraries.

On the republic switch:

This will often hurt an economy early, especially on Vanilla, which has no unit support, at all. You need to get your roads built and cities up a little larger for it to start being very useful.



Forbidden Palace: It takes awhile... however, on Emperor, you can do enough war to get those MGL's, so it balances out.

 

[Marsden]

On Vanilla, I think Monarchy might be good for you. It is inferior in most respects, but it is easier to maintain and allows a bigger army. In my experience, when I was on regent and lower I used a lot of ancient units, especially swordmen, to conquer, but moving up to emperor I find they are antiquated too quickly and I need middeaval units to fight, sometimes just engaging in minor skirmishes and limited objectives until I get cavalry. Try reading this article, too: Monarch to Emeror

 

[civverguy]

Are you playing Vanilla?
When you switch to republic, you will get a deficit. Try to put your science slider as low as possible. If you're falling behind, try to trade as much as possible. Have you met all the civs?
Can you post a save?

 

[Chamnix]

So I would really appreciate it if the experts on this site, send me a written move-by-move synopsis of one their games.

I don't think you will find a move-by-move synopsis of an entire game, but you could check out the Quick Start Challenge Results for the GOTMs. The scores are links to detailed descriptions of players' first 80 moves which are the most important anyway.

 

[vmxa]

"wdepner"

"1. I generally pick a civ with one of those traits: scientific, industrious or militaristic."

Not a problem, try China they rock on vanilla.

"2.My first research priority is the wheel, with an eye towards building an army of horsemen that I can unleash in late AA, early MA. I rarely build defensive units and invest a lot of resources into libraries and universities, so I can keep up or race ahead on the tech tree, with an eye towards staying ahead in the military department. But I rarely wage war during the ME, as I usually go for a scientific or diplomatic win (with the help of a GL). I have yet to win on culture."

No reason to research wheel at all. You can surely trade for it, unless this is a large or huge map or an archi. Go for maybe pottery, if you do not have it.

I would not wait on those horsemen, use them ealry. The longer you wait the less effective they will be. I would not build uni right away, kill someone instead.

Remember in vanilla you get a great leader and it can rush wonders.

"3. I trade, trade, trade, including maps. (Is this a mistake)"

I am not fond of trading maps. This gives them info, they do not need. Trades are good, as long as they are orchestrated to let you peddle stuff to as many as you can.

IOW if you have writing and only know 1 or 2, think carefully before trading.



"1. Obviously, the AI has a head start. So I respond by trying to crank out as many settlers as quickly as possible, generally without a settler factory. (It usually takes me about 10 turns to build a settler). But then I fall behind in building up my military, so I get picked on all the time. This becomes a real problem when I do not have horses. If that is the case, what should I do instead? Archers? Swordsman? Should I build barracks?"

As was stated, get a granary or 2. Never build more than a few warriors without a barracks, unless it is a special situation.

"2. I have changed my science spending (setting it to zero most of the time), yet I have found that this works for only so long. As the game goes on, the AI appears less and less willing to trade. So I fall behind in the science race, with obvious consequences for my military."

Self research is the best bet, control your expenses and expand.

"I have changed my research priority, now going for writing > republic. But speaking off that, switching to republic kills my economy. It sounds strange, but my GTP just drops as soon as I go to republic. Why does this happen?"

The lack of unit support. You must increase your income to pay the tab. This is done by adding towns and building markets.

"3. The Forbidden Palace remains elusive, unless I have a GL."

In vanilla the FP is a big deal. When and where to make it is important. Do not waste a leader on it. They are even more valuable, unless you have no other use for it and are still warring with elites.

"4. What about culture? I have read numerous recommendations not to worry about culture. But my cities flip-flop faster than Rudy G."

Don't know anything about Rudy, other than who he is, but two ways to prevent flips. One build culture, not my favorite way. Two kill your neighbors, that is my choice.

In an Always War game at emperor, the second option is the only real option. At a normal game, you should have enough culture to not have flips.

That usually means, a lib in most towns or even a temple in some case. An ever expanding empire takes care of the rest. They will not have large cities near you, until you are sacking them.

"5. This may sound strange, but I fear the AI more on emperor than any other level. Should I?"

Only fear the AI on Sid, it has a huge jump and is dangerous. The rest are just a case of good tactics. Once you understand the way the game should roll out, you will realize what to expect at each phase and be calm.

"I do not want to sound like a whiner. But the last couple of weeks have been really frustrating from a civ-perspective. I find myself quitting games out of pure frustration and anger. Most recently, I spent hours on one game, re-setting it to 4000 B.C. numerous times. But even foreknowledge of the map did not help. Help!!!"

What are the settings? What happened? What did you start look like?


"P.S. I have tried to review GOTM games, but they just appear as gibberish when I open them. (I am writing this from work -- don't tell my boss -- on a Mac. I play on PC.) So I would really appreciate it if the experts on this site, send me a written move-by-move synopsis of one their games."

Wow that is a massive request. I have done this for MooII games a few times to help some on impossible level, but it is a bigger job in civ.

There are many detail logs in the Succession forum. Look for some of the many emperor level games. Find one that is not a variant.

Best way to get a sort of walk through is to post a thread with a 4000bc save and then one at 80 or 100 turns. Make a log with as much detail as you can stand and get some feedback.

Determine if there is enough info to start over or not and then play another set of turns with a log. As the game progresses beyond the first 200 turns little is needed in the way of logs.

Do note in bold that it is a vanilla game and be aware that any saves posted back that were played in C3C will not be loaded in vanilla.

 

[Jazzmail]

Just a few more suggestions:

1. a deficit when going republic suggests poorly developed lands. See if you can get more out of your workers. Priority is irrigating 3+ food tiles, but rarely should you move a worker off a tile, before making a road there.
Sometimes it is better not to stack workers, count the turns needed. Maybe build more workers also.

2. going alphabet -> writing is a BAD rule. Instead minimal research (1 scientist or 10%) a tech that the AI is LEAST likely to discover before you.
When you pick a civ industrious + militaristic or science, then you don't start with alphabet, so any commercial civ is likely to beat you to writing.
Instead go vertical. example: discover iron when you're the only scientific civ on the map.

3. Granaries: only if you produce plenty shields in the city and not enough food, will this help you.

4. there is no real hurry to get to republic. Other techs like iron or horse riding can be much more helpful in the beginning than philosophy and code of laws.

5. Make use of RCP. It's the ultimate vanilla feature.

 

[vmxa]

"3. Granaries: only if you produce plenty shields in the city and not enough food, will this help you."

I would say this is completely the opposite of the way to go. First we are only talking about the first couple of towns. In most maps. Second it is more about having lots of food than shields.

The best town to use is one with wheat or a cow. You are trying to get settlers out, so you only need a few shields. The best case is to have more than +4 food.

If you do not have a granary, it takes twice as long to grow back the pop. Ideally you can create a town that can make 2 pop in the time it takes to build the settler.

There is some need to hurry to switch to rep as you are paying the despotism penalty. You do not have to do asap, but to delay for long will cost you.

 

[Jazzmail]

"3. Granaries: only if you produce plenty shields in the city and not enough food, will this help you."

I would say this is completely the opposite of the way to go. First we are only talking about the first couple of towns. In most maps. Second it is more about having lots of food than shields.

It's about both: 2 pop + 30 shields.

The best town to use is one with wheat or a cow. You are trying to get settlers out, so you only need a few shields. The best case is to have more than +4 food.

If you do not have a granary, it takes twice as long to grow back the pop.

But it will still take you just aslong to get 30 shields and you need 60 for the granary. I only do it when the town produces plenty shields.

There is some need to hurry to switch to rep as you are paying the despotism penalty. You do not have to do asap, but to delay for long will cost you.

There's a couple of things that better be done before the switch: expansion, worked tiles and a decent army. And it helps to have alot of cash left over from minimal research.
If you don't you could be left with a weak and vulnerable republic.

 

[vmxa]

Well at 5 shields you can make 30 in 6 turn, no a big deal. You have to expand, regardless of the form of gov you use. You do not need cash on hand in any great amount.

If you are using min research after the first few techs, you are going to be sorry.

 

[Jazzmail]

Well at 5 shields you can make 30 in 6 turn, no a big deal.

That's even IF the town makes 5 shields. The settler factory typically has fewer than <6 population and to produce enough food, green tiles and flood plains will be prefered over forests and hills.
5 shields*6 turns means every face uses a tile with +1 shield on average. That is hardly a given.

Now suppose we make 4 shields on average per turn. That's 8 turns for 32 of 30 shields. Also 2 irrigated floodplanes an one wheat: +4 food. 10 turns for 2 pop.
Without a granary it takes 10 turns to make a settler. With a granary, it doesn't take 5 turns, but 8 turns (limited by shields).

Granary takes 15 turns to complete here. So that's 15/(10-8) = 7.5 settlers to build before the investment becomes worthwhile. I wouldn't build a granary in this town.

It follows that in a town with more shield tiles and fewer food, a granary becomes a much better investment.

-town has much food, few shields: good settler factory without granary.
-town produces many shields: mediocre factory with a granary.
-town has everything: add a granary for a super settler factory.

You have to expand, regardless of the form of gov you use. You do not need cash on hand in any great amount.

Yeah but you'd better expand early in the despotism phase. Republic can wait till we get some decent AA technology.

If you are using min research after the first few techs, you are going to be sorry.

Nope. This is vanilla afteral: you have better odds to haggle techs out of peace treaties.
Properly set up with some basic techs like iron working and horse riding you can play the zero research game.

 

[vmxa]

You get 2 food from grassland in despotism, regardless what you do with it. So if you mine it, if makes at least one shield, 2 if a BG. If are not mustering 5 shields, try another game.

By the time you have the tech for a gran and build it, you are likely to be size 5 or 6. Just right. If this was deity, then you may use another approach.

Who you going to trade with, if you have no contacts or only 1 or 2? If it is a pangea and you have lots of contacts, no difference. You make what ever trades you can and still research as I intend to be the leader at emperor.

Of course I would be playing always war and no trades allowed, so it is moot.

In any event, I do not think anyone was talking about beelining to republic. If it is a game with neighbors, you probably can beeline as you can pick up most of low techs, from huts/trades/wars. I think it was intended that you get to republic quickly, but not necessarily with no other stops.

 

[MAS]

The value of a granary depends on the food output of the next city site compared to the food output of the current city.

I'd like to direct to this thread here: click here!
And please look at my post, (post #8) in that thread.

shields are not an issue.

 

[scoutsout]

I think Pottery is worth self-researching if you don't start with it. Aside from that, spend the gold researching second-tier techs, and buy up the first tier.

This is one (minor) disadvantage to playing China. With thier first-tier techs, you need an additional first-tier tech to start on the second (Masonry needs Alphabet to start towards Math; Warrior Code needs Wheel to start on Horseback Riding...)

One thing you may be suffering from: an addiction to Republic. Much of what you read on this site extolling the virtues of Republic is written about Republic in C3C. Between PTW and C3C they made some subtle but important changes to these governments...

What Marsden said about giving Monarchy a try isn't a bad suggestion at all - especially if you play a Religious tribe. Monarchy not only offers some unit support, but those units act as MPs. Many of the problems people have when transitioning to Emperor level deal with managing the happiness level of the population. Without markets and at least 2-3 luxuries it can be tough to keep the population happy in a representative government at Emperor level.

After a bit of warmongering (plus building some markets and aquiring some luxuries) a switch from Monarchy to Democracy can help you keep pace economically if the game will mature. In C3C there isn't as much of an advantage to going Democracy - which is why so many prefer to play in Republic. In Vanilla/PTW it is often worth the effort to switch to Democracy after a period in Monarchy.

 

[vmxa]

One thing that you have to take into consideration about Monarchy, is that you will want to use the MP effect. This means you have to have units in cities and that means you need more units than you otherwise would.

One of the draw back IMO to Monarchy, for non warmongers, is you are not able to send most of your units out to battle.

Republic is not as good in vanilla as it is in C3C, but we still used it over Monarch in std games. As in all early switches of government, it will squeeze you at first.

Secondary switches are seldom used for non religious civs.

 

[Jazzmail]

You get 2 food from grassland in despotism, regardless what you do with it. So if you mine it, if makes at least one shield, 2 if a BG. If are not mustering 5 shields, try another game.

Restarting the game with good food bonusses nearby, but lack of shield tiles in the immediate area? No way.
Let's see 5 shields. My town had 2 flood plains and 1 wheat earning a very nice +4 food. Then +1 in town centre + 2*0 on flood the plains + X = 5. Needs another X=4 shields.
Settler factory town will never have a constant population of 6. So 4 shields by the remaining 3 population.
That's possible with 2 normal grasslands and 1 bonus shield grass and 3*6 = 18 worker moves. 5 shields is not always so.

Not that it makes enough difference here. 5 shields granted.

30 shields in 6 turns
Without granary: 10 turns to get the 2 pop for a settler.
With a granary: 6 turns (still limited by shields).

Granary: 12 turns to complete here. So that's 12/(10-6) = 3 settlers to build before the investment will begin to pay off.
-I can have my first settler, a new town, 8 turns earlier; the second town 4 turns earlier and get a nice turn advantage. OR
-I can have my 4th settler come 4 turns earlier, 5th comes 8 turns, etc.

I may go either way here. You'd be right if my town made more shields/turn or if a granary cost less than 60 shields, but now it depends on how much I can get out of my first and second new town.
This is not so unlike what MAS does actually.

Who you going to trade with, if you have no contacts or only 1 or 2? If it is a pangea and you have lots of contacts, no difference. You make what ever trades you can and still research as I intend to be the leader at emperor.

I got more like 4 or more early contacts in a typical game. There is opportunity for trade, war, for extorting techs during peace negotiations.

 

[vmxa]

Ok, this getting boring. I meant try another game rather than civ if it is too hard. I thought it was obvious that you cannot always have a granary in the starting town, but normally could do so in one of the first two or three.

I do not know any players whose game I respect that would tell you that a granary in one or two of the core towns is a bad idea.

Anyway this is getting far from the help for the thread owner.