Destroy Undead/Banishment/Control

[Vehem]

Moved from the Downloads thread - old posts below...
=========================================

Scions are undead. The spell should affect them as much as it affects other undead without them being able to resist. If that means having to deal with an opponent who's using magic, go cut off their life nodes. Rather that then they gain another immunity.

My thought was the existence of a level 2 spell that easily wipes out whole stacks of Scion units is something the Scions should legitimately have some sort of defense against. According to my copies of the spell its effect isn't even resistible.

Both valid points. Destroy Undead affects Undead in a certain way and the Scions are undead. The presence of anti-Undead spells and anti-Undead promotions are the main balancing factors against some of the cool stuff they get.

That being said - the FfH changes to destroy undead are designed with the mindset that Undead are a marginal group - pretty much just summoned units and the occasional drown. To be useful, it needs to be reliably lethal against that group. In FF, there are more things for it to be used against, including a whole civ.

====

I've been considering a fairly substantial change to the nature of the spell though. Firstly, moving "Cure Disease" to be the Life2 mage spell, solving the problem some civs have of being unable to get access to the spell due to lacking priest units. It's a useful spell, often needed and appropriate for that sphere/level.

Secondly, having "Banishment" as a second tier divine spell for Good and Neutral religions (or at least Order and Empyrean). The nature of the spell would be such that:

• Two values are compared - casting strength and ability to resist
• The undead unit's ability to resist is a fixed value (CurrentDefStr *2)
• The caster's strength is variable (CurrentAttStr + Rand(CurrAttStr) + Rand(CurrAttStr)) [this means his casting strength is between 1 and 3 times his actual strength].
  • If the Casting Strength is less than the Unit's Resistance, no effect.
  • If the Casting Strength is equal to or greater than the Unit's Resistance, the undead unit is "turned" by the spell (Immobilized for 2 turns).
  • If the Casting Strength is more than a threshold (double/triple?) when compared to the Unit Resistance, the unit is "banished" and destroyed outright.

This means that weakened undead units are vulnerable to being destroyed by the spell, but strong, healthy units are likely to be simply stunned or to resist the spell completely. I would likely want to make the spell effect demons in the same way.

(By adding two separate random rolls to the Casting Strength, we get a roughly normal random distribution with a peak at 2*CurrAttStrength - but a fair amount of probability density on either side. This means that a healthy caster of the same strength as a healthy target has a 50%-60% chance to get at least an equal score (depending on the actual strength of the unit). When cast against a stack, that means a good number of stunned units per cast).

===

For the evil civs, "Control" would work in a similar way, except that instead of banishing the target unit, the spell works as a weaker form of domination (the threshold value to control the unit may need to be slightly higher due to the additional benefit of gaining a unit vs simply destroying it).

===

This stops the spell being cripplingly effective against any civ that relies on Undead/Demons (Scions/Infernals) and requires that they are still engaged in standard warfare to weaken the units (weak units are most vulnerable). It does provide an excellent way to clean up the weakened units however (effects stacks) and fills the role that assassins normally might (Marksman doesn't work against non-living).


======================

but I don't want to see Cure Disease moved over to Arcane.

What I personally would like to see done for Destroy Undead is to see *it* moved over to Divine casters, then see the Divine casters for the Scions (Doomsayers, et al) get some sort of bonus that lets them, and the stacks they're in, resist the spell at a high percentage (maybe even set it so it does reduced damage if they do resist?)

Or some other fix. Admittedly, Sanctify from Life I feels like it should be divine. I just don't have anything else to give Arcane casters of Life magic 0_o

Aye - that's the main problem really - finding something else to give Life Arcane. There was a link (back in the day - end of Light, start of Fire) between Life2 and Cure Disease... When Divine spells relied on other sphere promotions rather than religion, it was a Divine/Life2 spell. It is still as you said, a divine spell.

The main reason to make it a Divine spell is that Priests have much higher combat values, so with the proposed system are much better able to deal with high strength undead. It could be reworked to deal with the mages having lower strengths (making the mage's strength worth more in the formula) - but it's not as neat... It also feels like a divine spell, but that's pretty much just the "cleric-influence" talking.

A lot of the Life spells do seem like "good divine" spells, I agree, but sanctify wouldn't be of much use as a level 1 evil divine, and a "spread hell terrain" opposite version would probably be too powerful for level 1.

====

There've been a couple of posts that are against Cure Disease being arcane though, but I'm not sure of the reason. Thematic? "It's always been Divine?" Something else? Life magic is related to restoration, which seems to fit the role of Cure Disease nicely - but I'm interested in reasons to argue the other way at the moment (primarily game-mechanics reasons - which are more important that lore based for the moment)...

 

[Tarquelne]

I think a destroy/immobilize/nothing spell would probably work well.

I was just logging on to post a comment about the earlier idea, though, involving sending targets "home", effectively destroying summoned creatures. I like both the flavor and the effect it could have on the Scions - send them back to the Bottomless Tomb. Most simply that could be back to the capital. More complicated versions would be:

1) Destroying the unit but giving a slight bonus to the Awakened spawn rate - the Tomb has become a bit more crowded with some people who have some unfinished business. I'm not aware of any simple way to do that via python, though.

2) Destroy the unit and place a new unit of the same unitcombat in the capital. The unit would have all of the promotions as the old unit, except those having to do with equipment/enchantments. Same unitcombat - but of the most basic type. A Banished Principes with Enchanted Blade, High Quality Iron Weapons, and Combat 3, for example, would re-appear as a Warrior with Combat 3.

This would all represent the unit being sent back to some"where" "near" in the Bottomless Tomb and just popping back out. But all their stuff is gone, and they've been debilitated to some extent - whatever extent being knocked down to Warrior represents.

That could be combined with the destroy/immobilize/nothing idea. Perhaps just replacing "immobilze" with one of the back-to-capital mechanics. Or "destroy" if the spell is still slanted heavily toward destruction.

****

Changing tack, since it's really just the Scions making the new spell difficult to integrate, we could do something to just the Scions - give them a Ritual that gives resistance - but not immunity - to the "normal" Destroy Undead spell. Cut it back to an especially damaging Area of Effect spell rather than an especially deadly Area of Effect spell. And if for whatever reason the Ritual isn't in place, then it's an especially deadly spell again. The biggest single problem I see with this idea is AI controlled Scion - Are they going to keep the Ritual up? I like the idea of a human player risking ruin from the spell. I don't see that being a "risk" for the AI, though - probably just ruin.

****

Good/Neutral Divines, Cure Disease.

I like the placement of Banishment with Good/Neutral Divines. The thing I don't like about Cure Disease with Life 2, however, is that since it is often needed players will be quite often getting Life just for Cure Disease. It might become a standard option. I'd like to avoid "standards." OTOH, that really hinges on just how often Cure Disease is needed.

Assuming it is needed most games I'd rather supply civs without access to priests a unit or building capable of curing disease. If not - then I think the change a definite improvement.

(Marksman doesn't work against non-living).

Oy! I did not know that. Has it always been like that? I could have sworn I had some Assassins acting as Saboteurs, destroying siege engines. I liked that.
Personally I'd like to see Undead included - slipping a little holy water into a litch's bath, say, rather than a little hemlock into a mage's tea.

 

[Vehem]

Changing tack, since it's really just the Scions making the new spell difficult to integrate, we could do something to just the Scions - give them a Ritual that gives resistance - but not immunity - to the "normal" Destroy Undead spell. Cut it back to an especially damaging Area of Effect spell rather than an especially deadly Area of Effect spell. And if for whatever reason the Ritual isn't in place, then it's an especially deadly spell again. The biggest single problem I see with this idea is AI controlled Scion - Are they going to keep the Ritual up?

I think this one can probably be handled without needing anything Scion-specific - at least beyond a slight reduction in chance to be destroyed if there is a Doomgiver/sayer in the stack (weak units would still be in big trouble, they'd just have to be a little weaker than units without a Doomgiver to attempt to protect them). As I understand it - the Doomgivers are the "religious" arm of the Scions, so it'd be appropriate (assuming it is treated as a Divine spell in the end).

Extra rituals, shielding and such add complexity (and the Scions already have plenty of that). The mortality rate for the spell is going to be aimed such that to be destroyed, a unit of roughly the same strength as the caster will need to be less than 40% strength to stand any chance at destruction (maybe 1 time in 25 for a Str5 unit), less than 10-15% to have it be semi-reliable. Units that are considerably weaker than the caster would obviously be much more vulnerable - Velites would get their rear-ends handed to them by an experienced High Priest 95% of the time...

Oy! I did not know that. Has it always been like that? I could have sworn I had some Assassins acting as Saboteurs, destroying siege engines. I liked that.
Personally I'd like to see Undead included - slipping a little holy water into a litch's bath, say, rather than a little hemlock into a mage's tea.

At least as long as the Scions have been around. Was originally thought of as a way to stop sinking ships and to prevent siege engines drawing undue attention since they had their strength reduced. Demons, Undead and Angels were included as mortal ways of swift killing (backstab) aren't necessarily going to be the effective against them (and in D&D, such beings are immune to Sneak Attack). As you said, there are ways to deal with those types other than pointy knives - but its going to be very difficult to pull off on a battlefield.

The thing I don't like about Cure Disease with Life 2, however, is that since it is often needed players will be quite often getting Life just for Cure Disease. It might become a standard option. I'd like to avoid "standards." OTOH, that really hinges on just how often Cure Disease is needed.

It's largely the same though as "Got Desert? - Take Water" or "Kill Dragon? - Take Spirit". Each has a specific use that if you need the spell, you choose to take that sphere. It may just be the way I play, but I generally don't need Cure Disease until the late game and in some games Diseased units go untreated because I haven't focused on a religious path at all (quite often not even founding - just borrowing from other civs). In other games (AV heavy) I have used it a fair amount, but would have equally been able to use it as a Mage spell...

 

[Tarquelne]

Extra rituals, shielding and such add complexity (and the Scions already have plenty of that). The mortality rate for the spell is going to be aimed such that to be destroyed

Ok. I wasn't concerned about lethality, just "fun", and you make a good case that the ritual would be more trouble than its worth.

Was originally thought of as a way to stop sinking ships and to prevent siege engines drawing undue attention since they had their strength reduced.

Hmm... if I ever make that "Deep Dwarf" race they'll have a Saboteur unit.

It's largely the same though as "Got Desert?

Sounds fine. I remembered always having a priest when I needed one, but not how often that was.
And I think Cure Disease would be of more general use than Destroy Undead.

Doomgivers and/or sayers helping with resistance to the spell makes a lot of sense. Give them that instead of the Neutral version of Banishment? (They'll have to kill Demons the old fashion way.)

Given other ties between Scion units and their territory we could easily justify making the spell extra dangerous outside Scion borders and/or less dangerous within those borders. Assuming balance makes one or the other desirable.

 

[Vehem]

Ok. I wasn't concerned about lethality, just "fun", and I think you make a good case that the ritual would be more trouble than its worth.

I think the two are fairly well linked - too lethal isn't much fun, but it should be a vulnerability that they're always concerned about. This is a spell specifically designed by mortals to destroy the Undead/Demons, so they should be fairly worried about it (the same way mortal races worry about all the supernatural nastiness the Scions can throw their way...)

The main concern for the Scions should be a large stack of experienced casters encountering inexperienced Scion stacks. That would get messy. But the same is true for any large experienced stack...

 

[Thunder_Gr]

My opinion about the Life Sphere and Divine spells:

It is obvious to me that Bless,Cure Disease,Destroy Undead, Heal, Ressurection, Sanctify are clearly divine spells, not Arcane. I know that Bless and Heal are still Divine in the game, just mention them here for completeness.

Perhaps in the "Elder Scrolls" line of RPGs, "Restoration" was what we have as a Life sphere, but, even there, "Restoration" was divided in two areas.
1)Healing and ability augmentation, that are taught by priests throughout the continent, and not by mages
2)Absorving skills and reducing abilities, that were taught by mages.

The Spirit sphere has the same problem, since "Courage" and "Hope", are really Divine spells and not Arcane.

Since Life and Spirit are in the domain of the Gods' influence (and thus Divine), they are highly unsuitable for Arcane units, so, they shouldn't be there for use by Mages.

It appears that, as the mod(FFH) and modmod(FF), progress in development, it is common to drop the thematicly fit content for the shake of simplicity.

 

[Tarquelne]

The main concern for the Scions should be a large stack of experienced casters encountering inexperienced Scion stacks. That would get messy. But the same is true for any large experienced stack...

Well, I'm sure you're wrong there. Blowing the stack to dust would be hardly a mess at all compared to the conventional-weapon alternative.

 

[Vehem]

It is obvious to me that Bless,Cure Disease,Destroy Undead, Heal, Ressurection, Sanctify are clearly divine spells, not Arcane. I know that Bless and Heal are still Divine in the game, just mention them here for completeness.
...
Since Life and Spirit are in the domain of the Gods' influence (and thus Divine), they are highly unsuitable for Arcane units, so, they shouldn't be there for use by Mages.

All of the spells in the game are in the domain of the gods' influence by that reasoning though. Each of the 21 spheres has a god/angel that presides over it. Life and Spirit are the two that fit our common Earth-views of a benevolent deity (Spiritual, Inspirational, Peaceful and Healing) - but in a dark fantasy setting, Death and Chaos are equally "Divine".

In the lore, men have been taught how to tap into the spheres used to form Creation and can therefore wield that power without the consent of the gods/angels that preside over the sphere. That is tied into the stories of Ceridwen and Kyorlin - and was the basis of the "Age of Magic". I don't think it's ever really explained if Priests use a form of that same magic, or literally need to have their prayers answered to wield any power ("Bane Divine" suggests that it's the latter though).

======

My point here is basically that "Divine" in FfH isn't synonymous with "Good" or "Protection". You have evil beings - equally "Divine" but, really not nice at all. The same is true for mortals and mortal spell casters. Some use the "good spheres" and some use the "evil spheres". Both wield powers beyond that which mortals were meant to.

Divine \Di*vine"\, a. [Compar. Diviner; superl. Divinest.]
[F. divin, L. divinus divine, divinely inspired, fr. divus,
dius, belonging to a deity; akin to Gr. ?, and L. deus, God.
See Deity.]
1. Of or belonging to God; as, divine perfections; the divine
will.
[1913 Webster]
....

4. Pertaining to, or proceeding from, a deity; partaking of
the nature of a god or the gods.

Definition 1 is the common, real world usage. Definition 4 is more what FfH refers to.

======

It appears that, as the mod(FFH) and modmod(FF), progress in development, it is common to drop the thematicly fit content for the shake of simplicity.

I don't think anyone can really say that we've tried to make life simple for ourselves over recent versions. Equally, I know that when Kael cuts content, it's actually harder than simply leaving it alone.

 

[WarKirby]

I like this being along the right track, having the spell scaled depending on strengths., But I see some flaws

Firstly, Life III is waaay too late, sorry. Most of the good offensive spells are on lv2, and I think that should be keps.
But it would also make sense for priests of most religions to have acess to this spell. heal/cure disease/destroy undead are far more fitting with the traditional notion of "white magic" than things like earthquake, ring of flames, and tsunami, ever were. I think it would be good for the scions to have something to fear from divine units.


As to the actual strength scaling though, I see an issue here. I don't think ombat strengths are a good way of measuring the effectiveness of a spell. Combat strength is a representation of physical prowess, not magical capability. And I'd like to see this sort of thig affected by the spell damage bonus from combat promotions

My main problem with using combat strengths as the method of doing thigs, is that it would make scion mages horribly vulnerable. I think this is not a good thing. adepts/necromancers, knowing the ways of magic as they do, should also know far more about how to fight it, than the unit of skeletal archers that gets hit by destroy undead.



Oh, and as long as other religions are getting work on their ability to destroy undead, I'd also like to see the scions have some affinity with them. Like, give necromancers a "control undead" spell, making them effective against wild skeletons, pyre zombies, etc.
I think some mechanic is needed to give spellcasters a much higher resistance against this than normal.

 

[Vehem]

Well, I'm sure you're wrong there. Blowing the stack to dust would be hardly a mess at all compared to the conventional-weapon alternative.

Who's going to sweep up?

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I don't think anyone can really say that we've tried to make life simple for ourselves over recent versions. Equally, I know that when Kael cuts content, it's actually harder than simply leaving it alone.

You got me wrong here. I did not mean that you try to make life simple for yourselves. Simplicity for new players to be easier to learn the mechanics faster. This is what I meant. Sorry if I wasn't clear about it.

Well, we could argue forever about what is Arcane and what is Divine, it seems. Basic Arcane spheres are Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Metamagic, Enchanting, Mind, Shadow, Entropy, Body, Dimensional, Force, Creation and level I Death. Basicaly, what manipulates the energies of the world, without being confined to divine assistance.
Perhaps you could argue that Oghma is the one over Arcane Magic in general, but Oghma is not part of any religion, nor demands any worshiping. She may be the channel that provides the energies, but the ability to manipulate them come from the caster himself, and not for the worshipping of a Divine.

 

[Tarquelne]

Firstly, Life III is waaay too late, sorry. Most of the good offensive spells are on lv2, and I think that should be keps.

I thought it was being proposed for the units from Priesthood - the mage equivalents, not the archmage equivalents.

As to the actual strength scaling though, I see an issue here. I don't think ombat strengths are a good way of measuring the effectiveness of a spell. Combat strength is a representation of physical prowess, not magical capability.

OTOH, maybe the combat strength of a magic-using unit does largely reflect that unit's magical capability. I've always assumed so. That a Archmage's combat score is mostly from his "tactical" spellcasting, not his skill with a weapon.

And I'd like to see this sort of thig affected by the spell damage bonus from combat promotions

That'd be ideal... and any other spell damage mods from other sources.

My main problem with using combat strengths as the method of doing thigs, is that it would make scion mages horribly vulnerable. I think this is not a good thing. adepts/necromancers, knowing the ways of magic as they do, should also know far more about how to fight it, than the unit of skeletal archers that gets hit by destroy undead.

Hmm... I agree with that. But think that can be fixed by a promotion given to any Undead Arcane/Divine unit. Or perhaps the spell's forumla could just assign extra "strength" to Arcane/Divine units.

I kind of like that Revenants would be especially vulnerable, though. (Assuming the Death damage isn't counted as strength.)

Oh, and as long as other religions are getting work on their ability to destroy undead, I'd also like to see the scions have some affinity with them. Like, give necromancers a "control undead"...

Maybe. The Scions are supposed to be rather different than the other undead, though. An affinity makes some sense, but I don't think it'd be a stretch to say there isn't *enough* of an affinity to justify a control spell.

 

[Iceciro]

I'd think the Scions would see other undead as monsters, because usually they're more animated corpses than the actual life/unlife that the Scions seem to have upon getting out of the tomb. Just my two cents there.

As a sidenote, if this does come to pass I'd like to see undead get Turn Resistance, or it's equivalent, as a promotion. That is, unless the Scourge (+40% versus Disciple units) promotion would do the same due to the strength calculation... hmm.

 

[WarKirby]

Maybe. The Scions are supposed to be rather different than the other undead, though. An affinity makes some sense, but I don't think it'd be a stretch to say there isn't *enough* of an affinity to justify a control spell.

But I'm not referring to the scions in general, but rather, the Necromancer (mage UU) unit specifically.

A necromancer is traditionally someone who specialises in creating, and controlling, undead. I think it would make sense for them to be able to take control of other civ's undead units.


There's also a balance issue, here, which I'm tryin to correct with this idea. All other (non scion) civs can use destroy undead, and it's ilk, to deal with massed skeletons/pyre zombies. Scions cannot, as such a thing is suicidal to cast. So I think they need some alternate arcane method of dealing with undead.

Scions should fear priests and holy warriors, who are adept at slaying the undead. but I don't think it makes sense that they should have to fear other undead more than other civs as well, due to not having a mass counter against pyre zombie spam,

 

[Vehem]

Perhaps you could argue that Oghma is the one over Arcane Magic in general, but Oghma is not part of any religion, nor demands any worshiping. She may be the channel that provides the energies, but the ability to manipulate them come from the caster himself, and not for the worshipping of a Divine.

Junil - Law
Lugus - Sun
Kilmorph - Earth
Cernunnos - Nature
Danalin (via Hastur) - Water
Esus - Shadow
Agares - Entropy

Those are the only spheres to have a "religion" in game (though I suspect every god has followers). None of them really fit the role of "healer" though (Sucellus presides over Life and Sirona over Spirt - either works for restoration/compassion).

Oghma is favoured by the Amurites as they seek knowledge of magic (Oghma is Angel of Knowledge) - but it was Ceridwen who gave magic to men (Angel of the Stars). Her sphere is about warping the rules of Creation and bending them to the user's will and that is what Kyorlin and the Patrians did - used power that had only been intended for Angels in order to perform great magicks.

====

Arcane magic is basically that bending of the natural/physical laws of Creation as taught by Ceridwen. It is a way for men to take the powers of the angels, rather than be given it...

I thought it was being proposed for the units from Priesthood - the mage equivalents, not the archmage equivalents.

It was as far as I'm concerned - not sure where the misunderstanding was. High Priests/Arch Magi would be more effective when casting due to higher strength, but it's a Level 2 spell.

OTOH, maybe the combat strength of a magic-using unit does largely reflect that unit's magical capability. I've always assumed so. That a Archmage's combat score is mostly from his "tactical" spellcasting, not his skill with a weapon.

Aye - I'd think the same. When attacking, Mages toss little blue fireballs - it makes sense that they have a repertoire of spells that can be used in close combat. They won't ignore their magical training and just use their knives.

====

Arcane and Divine would need consideration. The easiest solution would be to set the threshold based on the unit targeted. If Arcane, Divine or Magic Resistant, the unit resistance is increased 50%.

Undead Mage: (Strength 4*2) + 50% => Resistance 12.
50% Injured Undead Mage: (Strength 2*2) + 50% => Resistance 6
75% Injured Undead Mage: (Strength 1*2) + 50% => Resistance 3

Principes: (Strength 6*2) => Resistance 12
50% Injured Principes: (Strength 3*2) => Resistance 6

Priest: (Strength 5 + Rand1(5) + Rand1(5) => Cast Strength 5-15

Full Health Mage

• In this case, the full health mage would resist the spell completely most of the time - only 6 out of 25 (24%) possible results for the Priest would be enough to stun him (greater than resistance of 12), No result is great enough to kill him.

50% Damaged Mage

• If Double resistance required to kill...
  
  The 50% injured Undead Mage however would only have a 12% chance of not being at least stunned (3 in 25). 6 out of 25 results would be greater than double his resistance (greater than 12), so he's got a 24% chance of dying.​
• If Triple resistance required to kill...
  
  The 50% injured Undead Mage however would only have a 12% chance of not being at least stunned (3 in 25). No results great enough to kill.​

75% Damaged Mage

• If Double resistance required to kill...
  
  The 75% injured Undead Mage however would always be stunned - he's too weak to resist it. 22 out of 25 results would kill (88%).​
• If Triple resistance required to kill...
  
  The 75% injured Undead Mage however would always be stunned - he's too weak to resist it. 6 out of 25 results would kill (24%).​

The two Principes are equivalent to the Mage at full health and the Mage at 50%.

========

Having run those numbers - scoring greater than triple the resistance score in order to kill looks to be the better option. Units under 25% strength are in serious trouble. Units at around 50% are fairly safe, but very likely to be stunned. Fully healed units are pretty likely to shrug off anything that's thrown at them, but roughly a quarter will be stunned per cast.

With this method, Scion Divine units are actually pretty well protected inherently. They're as strong as the priest units casting at them, but get a 50% bonus on top - making it unlikely that they'll be effected at all unless already damaged.

 

[Tarquelne]

But I'm not referring to the scions in general, but rather, the Necromancer (mage UU) unit specifically.

Oh, right - good point.

I'd think the Scions would see other undead as monsters, because usually they're more animated corpses than the actual life/unlife that the Scions seem to have upon getting out of the tomb.

So's that.

Maybe attach a bonus vs. Undead to "Necromancy"? (The promotion Necromancers pick up from combat.) So after a kill the Necromancer can direct some of that energy with extra-effect against undead.

As a sidenote, if this does come to pass I'd like to see undead get Turn Resistance, or it's equivalent, as a promotion. That is, unless the Scourge (+40% versus Disciple units) promotion would do the same due to the strength calculation... hmm.

Heh. I was thinking that it'd make sense for "Draw Strength" to help. I've been wearying of the micro involved with re-casting Draw Strength after every combat - every combat within borders. I might re-vamp it as a Duration magic resistance promotion rather than a expires-with-combat combat-bonus promotion.

Back to WarKirby -

There's also a balance issue, here, which I'm tryin to correct with this idea. All other (non scion) civs can use destroy undead, and it's ilk, to deal with massed skeletons/pyre zombies. Scions cannot, as such a thing is suicidal to cast.

If they need it Team-units could be immune and the spell given to Doomsayers - they're Neutral divines.

For massed pyre zombies I use Korrina and a good road to retreat down. But I don't think that's what you're getting at.

And a conditional combat bonus for Necromancers wouldn't help that much either. OTOH, there's still.. ok, not fireball. Not Balefire...

 

[Tarquelne]

The two Principes are equivalent to the Mage at full health and the Mage at 50%.

That sounds fine.

Having run those numbers - scoring greater than triple the resistance score in order to kill looks to be the better option.

Yep.

With this method, Scion Divine units are actually pretty well protected inherently. They're as strong as the priest units casting at them, but get a 50% bonus on top - making it unlikely that they'll be effected at all unless already damaged.

High resistance sounds good - though outside Scion territory they're now -2 attack. If their strength modifier were moved to a promotion giving a % penalty - would that maintain their resistance?

EDIT: A Doomsayer/givers base attack strength is now 2 lower, and increased by 2 in Scion territory via an autoacquired promotion.

 

[Vehem]

High resistance sounds good - though outside Scion territory they're now -2 attack. If their strength modifier were moved to a promotion giving a % penalty - would that maintain their resistance?

I'd be using Current Defensive Strength, so it'd be the -1 defensive that mattered. Even with that, they're fairly solid at Resistance: 8 outside borders, Resistance 15 inside borders for the DoomSayer. Injured Doomsayers outside are a bit of a liability - so they need some cover and to keep away from priests if they can. At home though, not much is going to touch them unless badly hurt.

EDIT: Can't see why Doomspinner is two promotions? The second one doesn't seem to rely on the Effect Promotion?
EDIT2: Just for Weird Wrack?

 

[Iceciro]

Thought/comment - another thing of note regarding resistance to the Banish Undead would be Haunted Lands - I'd think the Banishment would have a much lower chance of working if the targets are in haunted lands, and the spell being un-castable in Haunted Lands.

 

[WarKirby]

Maybe attach a bonus vs. Undead to "Necromancy"? (The promotion Necromancers pick up from combat.) So after a kill the Necromancer can direct some of that energy with extra-effect against undead.
......
And a conditional combat bonus for Necromancers wouldn't help that much either. OTOH, there's still.. ok, not fireball. Not Balefire...

I think you can see my point here.

destroy undead is good because it does lots of damage to weaken the zombies. And if I recall correctly, the damage they do on exploding is based on how much health they have at the start of that battle, so weakening them first reduces the blast.

Regardless, It really doesn't seem right that necromancers aren't extremely effective against undead. I'm thinking something like...

Command Undead

This would work like a mini-dominate spell. Key differences:

Firstly, 50% base chance of working.
Only works on the undead, obviously. And not against scions(though maybe against scion-summons?). Would also not work against liches.

For each level that the necromancer is, higher than his victim, the chance of sucess is increased by 10%. Ergo, lv5 necromancer vs lv1 skeleton = 90% chance of sucess. This would work conversely, though. So that a high level target would gain extra chance of resistance.

Each Death spellsphere promotion he has, could add a farther 10% to the odds of success.

If the unit is in Necromancy mode (after killing a living unit), he would gain a farther 40% bonus to the chance of working, making it almost guaranteed to work.

Magic resistance promotion would work as normal, increasing the resistance chance by 20%. As would the bonuses from being in a city, having the bone palace(in current city), and having the tower of alteration.

Upon sucess, the unit is transferred to the caster's control, with no maintenance cost and no war weariness on death, for a limited lifespan. The number of turns it lasts for is equal to 1 + the number of Death spellsphere promotions the caster has. So up to 4 turns. This would prevent farming a skeleton army from barbarians early. Once the lifespan expires, the unit crumbles to dust (delete unit), does not return to original owner.

There would be no repercussions for failure( unlike dominate) except having wasted your spell for that turn.
As to targeting, it could just work identically to dominate

----------------------------

Something key to note though, is to not fall into the "divided soul trap" of having an awesome unit lose a defining ability on upgrading. So the command undead spell should be given via a promotion (which the necromancer unit starts with) rather than being a base part of that unit's abilities, so the ability is retained when he upgrades.

Also, I'd be inclined to make Necromancers start with the Undead Slaying promotion, too. Being that they spend a lot of time working with and studying the walking dead, and would surely know more effective ways of destroying them than the average person