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Detailed analysis: # of specialist cities needed per era (Part II!)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by futurehermit, Jul 23, 2006.

  1. Elledge

    Elledge Chieftain

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    I'm not sure what you aren't understanding. In a cottage economy, turning up your luxury slider 10% is losing 10% of your tech rate. In a specialist economy, turning up your luxury slider 10% sacrifices almost nothing.
     
  2. UncleJJ

    UncleJJ Deity

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    I think he understands this, as do I, but we just can't see how people who are fanatical about specialists can be so ignorant (or perhaps negligent) of the benefits of commerce (from cottages or other sources). A base beaker is a base beaker whether it comes from commerce or a specialist and the same applies to base gold income.

    Commerce is a valuable component of your economy and making simplistic assumptions about what it can do like running your Research at 0% for nearly the whole game doesn't make sense. For a time commerce might be enough to exactly meet the running costs of your empire. But usually it will be either too much (in which case why not raise the Research to 100% for a time) or if you've over expanded too little to meet costs (in which case you need to do something about it - which could include increasing commerce ! ). So it will always be advantageous to build the right infrastructure to make better use of commerce and that can include building cottages or working captured towns.

    In a recent game I conquered Roosevelt and he had several cities size 14 each with maybe 8 fully developed towns. If you were running a specialist economy what would you do in that situation? Work the towns or turn them to farms?
     
  3. Fetch

    Fetch When in doubt, reboot.

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    I think the needs of the situation come into play here. It would seem best to keep the towns since it would take a while to develop a specalist base there (time to re-build library, university, etc), while the cottages will produce from day 1. Also, He never says that you cant use the culture/science slider to suppliment the specalists. You could bump your science up 10% and take advantage of the commerce, or you can keep it low to use the cash to upgrade troops, rush a building, etc.
     
  4. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    Or, you could just raze the towns for good $, which is what i would do.
     
  5. Araqiel

    Araqiel Prince

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    Which would be incredibly foolish. The future income potential of that many towns is far more than the initial cash you gain from pillaging. Unless you're overextended and razing towns pillaging like that just to keep your economy "pure" is silly.
     
  6. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    Well, I disagree, because I'd prefer to work the specialists and the income will help me to keep "over-extending"
     
  7. Araqiel

    Araqiel Prince

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    On what basis do you rest your decision. A fully developed town provides more commerce via working it rather than pillaging. In very short manner of turns.

    Likewise you get much more commerce out of a town than a specialist, even with the pyramids and without the enhancing technologies and civics. When you advocate something you should have solid reasons for it. You base much of your strategy around cottages taking too long to develop. In this sort of situation (which isn't uncommon) they're handed to you fully grown.
     
  8. UncleJJ

    UncleJJ Deity

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    Smart answer but not practical. There are lots of problems with this when you look at it closely.

    Have you ever done this and pillaged 8 towns before taking the city? It is reasonable to assume 4 towns were on the other side of the city so you have to march your pillagers 2 squares past the city. That will take time to do and increase the length of the war. Pillaging a town requires 4 steps (town=>village=>hamlet=>cottage=>nothing) or MPs of the units so you'll need a fair sized stack to destroy a town in only 1 turn. Most units only get 1 MP in enemy teritory... that's move or pillage not both, mounted get 2 MP. How long is it going to take you to pillage 8 towns?

    Delaying the conquest of the city allows the AI to build more units and makes the war cost more in gold and war weariness. The sooner you capture a city the sooner it is under your control and working for you rather than against you.

    Adding to that, I find the AI will attack weak stacks and make strong efforts to wipe them out... thus aggravating war weariness (which costs more research as you have to raise the culture slider again).

    I find conquering cities I'm going to take quickly pays off best even if I do destroy the improvements later. Pillaging is strictly for weakening enemies I am not strong enough to take out yet. The gold barely covers the cost of the unit outside my borders for several turns.

    Want to revise your smart answer?
     
  9. futurehermit

    futurehermit Deity

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    no, i don't
     
  10. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    about pillaging vs working the tiles :
    if you're aggressively capturing cities, you have immediate need of money.
    Money in 10 turns isn't saving you (ie after revolt is over).
    Plus, if you pillage away, you can raze with no remorse ;)
     
  11. Quotey

    Quotey Emperor

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    There needs to be a definitive guide on at least, beggining a Specialist Economy.

    *wink* *nudge*
     
  12. UncleJJ

    UncleJJ Deity

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    If you raze the city and then pillage the tile improvements you will get money if they are still in the cultural zone on another of his cities, but not if they are now inside your own cultural zone, that much I know. What I am unsure of at present is whether you would get gold from pillaging improvements if they are outside any cultural zone, but I think you might. Who knows if this is so?

    If that is the case then a line of approach that could work would be to raze most of the enemy cities and pillage the improvements (now outside any cultural zone) before moving in with your workers and settlers to rebuild after your own fashion i.e. spamming farms everywhere. That is a strategy that will work well with specialists but is not worthwhile with cottages since they take a long time to grow up. However, I'm not sure how much gold you actually get from this strategy when you factor in the extra costs of keeping many units outside your own borders pillaging and the costs of a prolonged war.
     
  13. Pete2006

    Pete2006 Prince

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    I'm playing an emporer game with Fred and I'm attempting to run a couple specialist based cities to leveerage my Phil trait and would like some feedback on how to do so.

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=178442&page=3

    I'm not quite sure how it's going to work out because if I run caste system and the max number of specialists, my cities will never grow. A cottage based economy seems much easier and more efficient.
     
  14. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    you can pillage anything that isn't in friendly cultural borders (ie not yours nor those were you have open borders with)

    the point is to keep moving. Pillaging after razing is good only if you need to rest some units and have others that can keep moving but you not enough to enter enemy territory.
     
  15. GABB

    GABB Warlord

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    A city with 8 full-developed towns must have a good defenses. In this case, I need to regroup a big stack to take it in one attack. If I can do it immediately, I do that now. If not, I pillage all towns I can with pillager’s teams.

    The good thing: I receive cash, the AI can’t work this town (slowing your enemy), the AI will lost some units against my pillagers (maybe less city defenders).

    The bad thing: I will not be able to work this town in the future.

    I raze too.
     
  16. Eqqman

    Eqqman Walrus

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    A minor point for Futurehermit, I think elsewhere you've mentioned that building Hagia Sophia is a usual staple of your game. If you're doing so well with research, wouldn't Steam Power come fast enough to make this Wonder a waste of hammers? Or is it essential since you've delayed SP because you need to prioritize techs that keep the specialist economy rolling ahead?
     
  17. NaZdReG

    NaZdReG Warmonger

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    hermit,

    how would you go about using this strat if you are playing a civ that is not:
    indust.
    philo.
    and starts near no stone.

    ???

    not that i'd attempt this strat in MP, its way too risky with the level of warmongering we see.

    NaZ
     
  18. Frakin

    Frakin Chieftain

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    Another advantage that I don't believe anyone's mentioned yet is the points advantage. Hendrikzoon has showed that :food: = score. The more people you have contributes more than anything else to the score total, and also helps for domination and diplomatic victories.

    This way, you don't have to convert all your beautiful 7 gold towns with 1 :hammers: from universal suffrage to late farms. Together with Civil Service and Biology you will rule the game, as long as you have enough workers.

    I think I'm going to try this strat out with Peter (expansive, philosophical) to take advantage of the :gp: + health advantage, together with a quick oxford (from al lthe universities.

    Thanks for the stat-mongering futurehermit
     

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