Detailed analysis: # of specialist cities needed per era

Emancipation (not available til democracy) doubles growth rate e.g. cottage-hamlet 5 turns, hamlet-village 10 turns.
Without emancipation 70 turns from cottage to town, reduced to 35 turns with emancipation.
 
Ok, nice, thanks for this. Maybe the compromise is to run specialist economy til around democracy, then switch to cottages running emancipation and using statue of liberty and mercantilism to continue to run 2 scientists per city?
 
One question: Since scientists provide 6 beakers per turn regardless of game speed (afaik), is there a game speed that is more optimal for this strategy? I'm thinking you're better off on normal speed since the techs are cheaper...
 
future,

would have to agree with you. i'm trying your strat on epic and really struggling w/ bismark. cottages would provide about the same but how do you support your high food needs before civil service?? being unable to chain farms onto the grassland is the #1 inhibitor right now in being able to add more specialists. take a look at the save.. any input you could give me would be great. I'd like to give your strat a serious shot before I argue against it further.

NaZ
 
NaZdReG said:
.. what were the specialists before you converted them to science??

Almost every specialist prior to my switching them to scientists were artists. A couple of cities were running merchants or priests as well.
 
would have to agree with you. i'm trying your strat on epic and really struggling w/ bismark. cottages would provide about the same but how do you support your high food needs before civil service?? being unable to chain farms onto the grassland is the #1 inhibitor right now in being able to add more specialists. take a look at the save.. any input you could give me would be great. I'd like to give your strat a serious shot before I argue against it further.

nice to have you on board.

here is the thing: prior to CS, i only run 2 scientists per city, and i therefore keep slavery. obviously, i prioritize CS as an important medieval technology. the way to increase your scientists prior to this is to increase the number of cities you have (go to war...).

running at 0% science you support the maintenance of your growing empire with additional conquests. it's like a non-stop war machine: extra cities give you more science, conquered cities give you more money, the more money pays the maintenance for the more cities, the more science gives you more military techs which give you a stronger army which means more captured cities ad infinitum :)

edit: early on you are limited by happiness anyways (esp on emperor) so you're not going to be able to run a pile of specialists anyways. i usually just stagnate my science cities at size 4 or 5 running two scientists until 1) my happiness limit climbs to 6 or 8; and 2) i have CS.

why is 6 the magic number for considering caste system (someone asked i think in this thread)? because you need 6 pop to run 3 scientists (except in rare circumstances) and for 2 scientists, you can just use your library.
 
futurehermit said:
One question: Since scientists provide 6 beakers per turn regardless of game speed (afaik), is there a game speed that is more optimal for this strategy? I'm thinking you're better off on normal speed since the techs are cheaper...

It works better at the slower speeds, like epic and marathon. Everything takes longer at those speeds, including the maturation of cottages, so one of the advantages of specialist-based research over commerce-based research, not having to wait for cottages to mature, is enhanced.
 
future,

I dunno man from the save I posted I fell WAY behind asoka in tech. I was running as many specialists as I could under representation but mid medieval I was about 8 techs behind. usually by that point I have tech dominance on prince and a substantial army.

I did get to pop the pyramids and great library, and capture several cities. towards the end I got dogpiles by a few civs but I wasnt concerned about that. comparatively I was WAY behind in research from my normal games.

if you could show me a series of saves of a successful game on your part I'd be happy to give this strat another shot.

NaZ
 
DarkFyre99 said:
It works better at the slower speeds, like epic and marathon. Everything takes longer at those speeds, including the maturation of cottages, so one of the advantages of specialist-based research over commerce-based research, not having to wait for cottages to mature, is enhanced.

I think this was discussed in another thread. Neither cottages nor specialists have an advantage on slower or faster speeds. It might seem like, since cottages take longer to mature, they are less suitable to slower speeds, but, in reality, since you need more total beakers, the effect is the same. If it takes you one full tech of reseach on normal for a cottage to mature into a hamlet, then it's going to take one full tech on marathon as well. Yes, it takes more turns, but those turns are worth a fraction of their normal-speed value.
 
It seems to me that the aggressive-specialist strategy is best suited to slower speeds. As malekithe says that has nothing to do with research speed since that all balances out between cottages and specialists and research times. Rather it is because slower speeds favour combat and that is an essential part of the strategy. You effectively get to fight more rounds of combat in any technological age and that favours the human player and an agressive one even more. But I think this strategy can still work at normal speed (at least my version of it).

In my mind specialists fit into the strategy as a desireable add-on that can use spare food instead of the "research engine" that some people think of. In a big empire that is rapidly expanding the important thing you need to do in a captured city is get some essential buildings in quickly to cut the costs and start producing something useful. Using slavery and working mines and other high production squares those buildings can be installed much quicker than if you try to work cottages and get commerce based benefits (beakers and gold) from the new conquest.

Also if I'm going for Domination I will soon have a lot more cities than the AI so it makes good sense to run Merchantilism to avoid giving away a lot in trade. Many of my cities will not have foreign trade routes and newly captured ones will not have the buildings giving the BS and BG bonusses from the trade anyway. Merchantalism also has the great advantage in a newly captured city of the free worker that can have many uses depending on the buildings captured or built.

I use food specialists as a means to control the population growth of the city as part of a happiness management technique. In the middle of a war a newly captured city will soon have war weariness (unless you have Mt Rushmore, a Jail and run Police State) and "we want to join motherland" unhappiness combined with 1 or 2 from slavery. You can soon have a problem even with a small or middle sized city with a good food surplus. How can we best use a high food surplus without working lesser tiles? Work mines, workshops etc for productivity or work food specialists to produce beakers and gold.

That is the underlying power basis of the aggressive-specialist strategy. The combination of high food, high productivity way of working cities with Merchantilism. My ideal civics would be
1) Representation for happiness in big cities and +3 beakers from my food specialists, settled specialists and the free ones from Merchantilism.
2) Bureaucracy (early) and Free Speech (late) since I will be working some towns and the +100% culture will help a lot of border and new cities.
3) Slavery - food is power and sacrifice is a way to control unhappiness
4) Merchantilism - Big empire doesn't help rivals trade and the free specialist is really useful in a new city.
5) Organised Religion - +25% help to build in those new cities and it helps Slavery work better too...

So a newly conquered city will need a Granary (to make Slavery work best), a theatre to boost culture (and allow an Artist if needed to further boost culture), a forge (to make Slavery and mines work better and gives access to an Engineer from Merchantilism), a courthouse, maybe temples (for more happiness / culture). Then we start building a productive infrastructure of BS and BG buildings which will depend on what tiles the city has to work. Libraries get built nearly everywhere (to give the Scientist option and they're cheap and they boost culture). Markets are good for more happiness... and so on. Alternatively I might build a Barracks or Drydock and build military but you get the idea... :)

I repeat the power of this strategy is having the combat bonusses from the aggressive traint, high food productive cities and running the civics I outlined above. That really means that you have to wait for the middle ages and renaissance before this becomes fully practical and you can go for total Domination. Of course you can have a limited early war in the classical / middle age to take over the cities of one AI opponent but that is just an expansion rather an attempt at Domination.

Another reason why any early attempt at Domination based on Representation only (as some advocate) is doomed is that you won't have important buildings in your core cities. You need to boost the BS and particulary BG in your top commerce / gold cities and for that you need to have researched up to Banking and built the buildings. I'm not entirley sure of this, but I feel an over expansion in the early game could delay the eventual and real non-stop run of Domination when it all comes together and all the civics and buildings are in place.
 
I dunno man from the save I posted I fell WAY behind asoka in tech. I was running as many specialists as I could under representation but mid medieval I was about 8 techs behind. usually by that point I have tech dominance on prince and a substantial army.

I did get to pop the pyramids and great library, and capture several cities. towards the end I got dogpiles by a few civs but I wasnt concerned about that. comparatively I was WAY behind in research from my normal games.

if you could show me a series of saves of a successful game on your part I'd be happy to give this strat another shot.

Here are a couple of saves as Gandhi. I believe they are both monarch difficulty and normal speed. They are earlyish in the game, but they show that I am near the lead in tech in both games.

Just a reminder: To obtain a classical tech in 5 turns, normal speed, you need 3 science cities running 2 scientists each with representation and a library, plus the great library for 2 more scientists. To obtain a medieval tech in 5 turns, normal speed, you need 8 science cities running 2 scientists each with representation, a library, and a monastery, plus the great library.

So, the priority in ancient is to get 3 cities running 2 scientists with representation (i.e., get pyramids and build 2 additional cities). The priority of classical is to get the great library and expand to 8 science cities. The best way to do this obviously is to wipe out a rival civ (you will get to 8 science cities plus probably obtain a few production cities). The best way to wipe out your first rival civ is to prioritize iron working and construction as the first techs you get after alphabet (ideally you want to trade for ironworking, math, and polytheism then research literature and construction). Then an army of swords (to attack the cities), catapults (to take down defenses), and axes (to protect your swords and to serve as defenders in the captured cities) will wipe out the rival civ with relative ease.

Once you've achieved these goals, you should be near the top of the tech lead and your civ should be one of the largest. So, next, you want to prioritize CS and Machinery asap. This will give you Maces, Xbows, and irrigation. Now grow your cities and use caste system to enhance your economy while using Maces, Xbows, and catapults to take out a second rival. Then your research priorities should be (in order of importance): Feudalism (for longows and vassalage), theology (for theocracy), engineering (for pikemen and hagia sophia, which is important when making the move to cottages come democracy), guilds (for knights and prereq for banking), banking (for mercantilism), and divine right (for versailles).

Usually by the time I hit the medieval era I have sufficient tech that the AI won't trade with me because they fear I am becoming too advanced. I also have the largest empire. I believe that if you have the largest empire and this kind of tech lead, you should never look back.
 
can anyone provide #s on whether the 6b/turn provided by a specialist is better at normal or epic speed? since the amount/turn stays the same but the beakers required for a tech changes, I'm sure one of the speeds must be better suited strictly in terms of the economic side of things.
 
late game (after biology) :
cottage on grassland near a river = 6 Commerce + 2F that support the guy working there
farms on grassland near a river = 1Commerce + 4F supporting the guy working + a specialist (6Science for a scientist for intance).
that means that even beeing a 100% science you wont get as many beakers from cottage strategy :o

isnt Caesar the best leader for that strategy ? organized --> many cities ; expansive --> big cities + praetorians for early war (and early huge empire ;) )



edit : hmm well I would rather say 4 - 5 specialist are the maximum / cities (+bonus from GL, mercantilism and sixtine), the rest can be cottaged :p
 
future,

I did stick it out for quite some time on that game. despite running upwards of 5 scientists PER city I was never able to catch up to asoka. on the power and gold graphs they were not only ahead in tech.. but MAJORLY ahead in gold production and culture. by early industrial it was just me them and saladin as major powers. I had both of them in terms of territory but they had defensive pact and tech advantage.. (I was sandwiched between them on the land) so no way to catch up in tech... loss of spacerace that way.. no way to catch up in culture.. and they both had sufficient armies (just upgraded to riflemen and calvary and cannons.. I had no $$ to do so)

will have to try the strat again sometime.. but it seems to only be good until a certain timeperiod.. after that your pretty much screwed if you havent won already.

NaZ
 
^^i disagree. in my games by the end of the medieval era i usually have the tech lead and the largest empire. if i don't have the clear-cut tech lead, it's only because the ai stopped trading with me because they fear i am becoming too powerful. once you hit democracy, you can adopt cottage civics (esp. emancipation) and using hagia sophia (which you should target in medieval) switch your farm empire over to a cottage one.

edit: can you give me some more info on your game? did you have pyramids and great library? did you prioritize construction and wipe out a rival asap once you get catas? did you prioritize CS and machinery as your first medieval techs so that you can use your early maces to wipe out a 2nd civ early in medieval? did you feel like you were near the top of the tech race throughout classical and early medieval? how many 2-scientist cities were you running during the classical period? what game speed and difficulty level?
 
pigswill said:
Given the importance of representation in an early specialist strategy how do you ensure you have access to the pyramids early on?

I was thinking about this question a bit. It would be nice to be able to use this stategy with a philosphical civ, but, so far, the mantra has been that you need either stone or the industrious trait to compete for the pyramids. There may be a more consistent method, however.

I propose building the oracle to grab metal casting, getting a forge in a non-oracle city, and then running an engineer specialist until you pop a great engineer (who builds the pyramids). With a philosophical civ, you'll need to run the engineer for 17 turns. The tricky part is getting the forge out fast enough after the oracle. You have an 8 turn window in which to get it done, or your first GP is going to be a priest from the oracle. You really have to set up for this in advance; settling a city, ideally, with a few forests to chop for the forge. The other benefit is that you've set yourself up with a city that can potentially produce another 1-3 great engineers over the course of the game.

This is really only viable, I believe, with a philosphical civ. Otherwise the wait for the Great Engineer may be too long. This would probably be best if you also made at least some attempt at an early religion (so the trip up to priesthood for the oracle isn't semi-wasted effort), hence, it'd also be good to start with mysticism (that would mean Saladin). Though, priesthood can also lead to an early CoL, benefitting most leaders (especially an organized one such as Mao).

The other nice thing about getting the pyramids this way is that it frees your capital to do whatever you want, instead of sinking all it's efforts for 30+ turns into the pyramids. The oracle build can be non-trivial, but, with a couple of forest chops, it's usually not tough to get (at least on emperor).
 
Ok, you want proof?! Here it is :)

Monarch, Normal speed, Continents, 1050AD

I'm running 18 scientists with representation, plus the Great Library, plus one super scientist.

That's 20 scientists at a rate of 7.5 beakers per turn = 150 beakers/turn plus 11.25 from the super scientist = 160ish b/turn. I also have an academy in my GL city.

At a rate of 160 b/turn I'll get medeival techs at a rate of 1/5 turns!

The only reason I don't have the tech lead is because my worst enemy Louis (I HATE THAT GUY) has refused to trade with me for awhile because he's afraid I'm becoming too advanced.

I nearly have the largest empire after almost wiping out Genghis (I would've had him finished, but he JUST managed to sneak a settler galley off our continent before I closed him out).

I'm almost ready to decend on Louis. Check out how fat his empire is, he's founded many religions. The first city I'm going to take is the holy city for 2 religions and I'll net two more holy cities in the next two cities.

After I take out Louis I'm confident I'll be on my way to a nice victory.

I played a little bit more after this save and Huang found me. After one trade I had the same tech as him. I'll have to see how the others are on that continent, but things are definitely looking up!
 
regrettably I purged the saves out of my folder (i usually do that when starting a new game)

but I did get the pyramids and great library. I plopped an academy in the capitol (which had both wonders) I was running the 2 free plus 3 more plus a few settled ones. but like I said asoka just raced ahead of me.. nobody really challenged them militarily. they wiped out the romans while I was busy with the greeks and mongols. saladin helped me with both of those wars. but meanwhile asoka just exploded in terms of tech. beating me to liberalism by several techs.. getting knights and macemen before me etc. they maintained that tech lead until the point where I quit the game, despite running atleast 2 scientists in every city I owned.

regrettably the only save left is the one previous in the thread, but do take a look at it will explain where I was at that time period

NaZ
 
I propose building the oracle to grab metal casting, getting a forge in a non-oracle city, and then running an engineer specialist until you pop a great engineer (who builds the pyramids). With a philosophical civ, you'll need to run the engineer for 17 turns. The tricky part is getting the forge out fast enough after the oracle. You have an 8 turn window in which to get it done, or your first GP is going to be a priest from the oracle. You really have to set up for this in advance; settling a city, ideally, with a few forests to chop for the forge. The other benefit is that you've set yourself up with a city that can potentially produce another 1-3 great engineers over the course of the game.

VERY interesting! I've been thinking for awhile now that I would WAY rather do this strategy with a philosophical civ, but I couldn't figure out how I could ensure the pyramids w/out industrious. W/out stone I can *usually* still get the pyramids with an industrious civ (as long as I don't get a really sparse forest region).

But this...this has peaked my interest :) I'll have to see if I can pull it off :)

Great thinking...
 
Try it with Mao. Organized is a useful trait with this strategy, and once you've got Metal Casting from the Oracle, you're only one technology away from having Cho-Ko-Nu's way before anyone has anything to counter them.

Alexander is also an option, of course, but Aggressive seems too obvious ;), and Phalanx's aren't terribly useful if you're on the offensive.

Edit: changed "one turn away" to "one technology away"
 
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