Detailed Tradition Game

CrazyG

Deity
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Hello All,

This will be a game where I explain some decisions in detail. The savegame is available for anyone who wants to also play. The difficulty is Deity, but (minor spoiler) this land is very strong. Other settings are standard size and speed, continents, without events or ancient ruins.

My plan is to play tradition as........Carthage. A civ that has obvious reasons to go wide. In doing this I hope to show why tradition is a strong option given the right start, even without obvious synergies, such as civ whose bonuses involve great people.

Here is the starting position:

carthage (3).jpg
 

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CrazyG

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First few turns:
Spoiler Where to Settle :

One point I'm going to mention a lot is that for tradition, a small difference in decision making has a big impact. The exact spot you settle is one of such decisions. I often take 3-4 minutes on my first turn looking at all the options.

This is where I settled:

A keen eye may have noticed that before even scouting, you can tell that this location had freshwater by hovering over the tile. That means I'd be next to either a lake or oasis and I could build a bath. The combination of food and production tiles here is also really efficient, you can grow quick then put new citizens on strong 1 food 2 hammer tiles, plus it has marble. The next best settle location is probably next to the crab, which isn't bad but it misses the marble and freshwater.
carthage (4).jpg

After settling I move my pathfinder and warrior in the same direction, so I can extract gold from city states I meet. Move the pathfinder first so he gains experience, if you meet a city state that gives influence have the warrior stand on his land, then demand gold when the influence reaches 0.


Spoiler Build Order :

I always build monument first. Shrine first has painfully slow culture.
carthage (5).jpg

Here I build monument-shrine-well. I'm able to invest in all three thanks to Carthage's bonus, gold from my land, and from tributing city states. After getting 2 city states to give gold, I turn the warrior around to explore the other way.



Spoiler City Management :

With tradition especially, I check my capital's tiles every turn. VP has a great built in feature where it will show spare hammers to finish on the same turn, and how many extra you need to get it one turn earlier (also applies to science, culture, and food). I always keep an eye on this and look to temporarily move tiles to extra food/production to squeeze out extra turns. Here, you can see I finish the well perfectly, then I will switch back to a food tile and grow to 4 pop just in time to grab tradition and immediately jump to 6 population, giving strong culture.

carthage (7).jpg



Spoiler Land and Social Policies :

I get my social policy on turn 21 (investing a monument makes a big difference). I'll take tradition here, which with my tiles, will help me push out those pyramids earlier. I've also pulled that warrior so he can escort the settler. For my second tech I research the wheel for the council (my top pantheon choice here will be ancestor worship).

From scouting, it appears there is an inland sea, which changes my plans. There's no heavily contested borders (which is why I recommended this start for tradition/progress games). I've met three AI but only found Brazil's land. At this point I want to bring the pathfinder home without finding the land of others civs, so that later I can get a quest for science. I've met 5 city-states which should be enough to get a few quests: in particular I want a quest for finding another civ, and for a great person (either engineer or artist).
carthage (9).jpg




Spoiler Turn 30 :

There's a settler out, a council in the queue, and an upcoming pantheon choice and social policy choice.
carthage (12).jpg


 
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CrazyG

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Pantheon and Expansion:
Spoiler Until Turn 36 :

Pantheon choice is another aspect which I think is more important for tradition than progress/authority. Frankly, most pantheons are just not strong choices. That doesn't mean they aren't fun/ you cannot win a game with them. Here I went for ancestor worship, primarily because it gives 2 culture to councils. It is really rare that I choose a pantheon without culture as tradition. My 2nd pick would have been God of Open Sky.

For the social policy, I take the artist. This gives the pantheon 1 turn earlier, and I immediately work the artist. You should always take the artist first unless you are facing some unusual circumstance.

Utique was easy to place. I use its gold to buy part of the Great Barrier Reef, and invest the council in Carthage. Then I'm saving up for a worker and I plan to buy another one. This is greedy, normally I would either build/buy a slinger instead, but I haven't seen a barbarian camp yet.

For science, after wheel I got pottery, and next I'm going for construction. I won't build my next settler until after the worker is finished. I want to time my next settler to plant immediately after I take the 3rd social policy, which is ideal for tradition and a good move if the settling spot won't be contested. It is also good to build up some spare food so when the settler is born, you can quickly return to 6 population.

For city-states, I sadly found China's land so I cannot get a quest to find her. I'm pretty sure Indonesia is to the west so I intentionally don't explore it, I want the pathfinder home to watch for barbarians anyways. I do get a quest to bully a city-state, which I will take.
carthage (17).jpg



Spoiler Finding Russia and Next Settler :

I get a quest to find Russia's land which surprises me, because I can actually already see it (in fact its in the previous image), but I never get a quest for Indonesia's after his tiles grow into my view. Either way free science is always nice, I complete construction and start trapping into calendar. Utique is settled directly on Dyes and it will have some cotton soon.

My workers start building quarries and I start on a settler. I'll take the engineer policy (and work him) once available. I sell both the Marble and Lapis after connecting them, if you want to play it safe you could keep the Marble. I'm going to try for Mausoleum of Halicarnassus next. I have the marble boost and a strong production capital, plus importantly, I'm confident if I miss it, I'm still in a good position. It will be my last wonder for a while (I'm not targeting the Hanging Gardens). Lapis Lazuli gives science when improved with is very strong.

carthage (20).jpg



Spoiler Turn 55 :

I succeed with Halicarnassus. I've conncted and sold some horses and I have a worker in every city. I'm researching trade (notice the quest from Geneva, a faith city-state), Russia has settled towards me and I hope to put one more city in that direction before she does.

On Diplomacy, Russia denounced Brazil, then became friends with China. So I denounced Brazil, then Russia offered me friendship, then China did too. I've agreed to war Brazil in 10 turns (I'll send my pathfinder to pillage stuff). Having good relations with neighbors helps a lot.

I'll cover build orders for the other cities. Council first, followed by shrine because my culture is strong but faith isn't. After that I'll build well, then monument, then whatever, possibly units. Like I showed with the well before, I watch how long to finish the councils and will switch to production to get it a turn earlier. Investing in councils is key because they give so many yields. Hippo Regius is focusing production instead of food after reaching 2 pop, because right now buildings like shrines or wells give far more yields than additional citizens do (same with Carthage).

carthage (22).jpg


For what to build next, either a military unit or a settler. I'll reach my next social policy before the next settler, which is ideal timing, and it will be powerful because all my cities already have councils.
 
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DeAnno

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Another good part of warrior and pathfinder moving near each other is they can protect each other/doubleteam barbs. Often if you split them up before either has any promotions bad things can happen and they might die. Once the warrior has one promo and the pathfinder has two they are usually safe barring extreme malfeasance though.

The value of using the first bag of Carthage gold to snowball your critical buildings and still have time for pyramids really can't be overstated. That one single serving of the gold is a large reason why I consider them the strongest civ. The tile micro you showed is quite important to shine a light on too it can make a large difference in the long run, often I'll slack on food at the start of a pop cycle then finish a building and go hard on food again until I grow.

I'll be interested to see if you go Pottery/Fishing soon and 3/4 and make Quinqueremes for a perpetual tribute tour, I can spot at least 4 coastal city states, and Tradition really benefits quite a bit from those tributes. Usually as Carthage I only make 1 tech stop before that so I'll be interested to see how your gamble for Wheel/Ancestor Worship goes.
 

CrazyG

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I'll be interested to see if you go Pottery/Fishing soon and 3/4 and make Quinqueremes for a perpetual tribute tour, I can spot at least 4 coastal city states, and Tradition really benefits quite a bit from those tributes. Usually as Carthage I only make 1 tech stop before that so I'll be interested to see how your gamble for Wheel/Ancestor Worship goes.
I'll go ahead and spoil that I didn't use this strategy, but it is a good option. The yield count for heavy tribute scales with your capital's population so it is a secret tradition synergy.
 

Thibix Magnus

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thanks a lot this is really welcome, I used to play trad a lot but in deity I don't find the way - as opposed to progress. Would you say the map type has a strong influence? i.e. continents favors more tradition than communitu?
 

CrazyG

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thanks a lot this is really welcome, I used to play trad a lot but in deity I don't find the way - as opposed to progress. Would you say the map type has a strong influence? i.e. continents favors more tradition than communitu?
I think maps with multiple continents favors Progress / going wide, while single continent maps like Pangea favor Authority/land war. Tall tradition should generally be okay on either, but you really don't want a coastal start without fresh water, and you aren't as good at suddenly building a navy in renaissance or industrial. Its been a long time since I played communitu but I remember it being very resource dense which probably benefits progress more than tradition.

There are a few small considerations too, like WLTKD is easier on a pangea which favors tradition, and the techs to unlock caravels and explorers are better on continents (which favors progress), but those are small in the scheme of things.
 
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Stalker0

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Great stuff. I like your note about saving the 4th city until the 3rd policy, I feel that is something I don't always time well. Its fine to get the settler ready and move it to teh spot ready to go, but actually waiting to plop it can be a big saving.
One question, do you work your engineer at the same time as your first artist, or do you switch off? I've been waiting until my artist finish lately because I feel that 2 specialists that early slows me down a bit more than I like, but that's probably also a terrain question.
 

CrazyG

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One question, do you work your engineer at the same time as your first artist, or do you switch off? I've been waiting until my artist finish lately because I feel that 2 specialists that early slows me down a bit more than I like, but that's probably also a terrain question.
Actually itll be 4th city after 4th policy.

With lighthouse and fish I'm able to work both specialists. If you have to use only one, pick one and run it until the great person is born. You should get a quest for artist or engineer (I got engineer, which will lead to an alliance with a faith CS). My capital is kind of 'stuck' in that I cannot grow more while working the power tiles like Lapis or Marble. That's okay, I can get growth going again later with a trade route, food CS, or religious belief. So far spitting out production/gold/culture/faith is the most important thing.
 

CrazyG

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Continued:
Spoiler 4th Policy and 3rd City :

Turn 61 is really good time for a 4th social policy. I would have a good chance at Hanging Gardens if I pursued the tech (however its still risky and isn't necessarily the best place to put those hammers).

Hippo Regius invested its council and is working on a shrine. It has access to a ton of pastures, so eventually it will probably be my military city. At the moment its going to stick around 3 or 4 pop and just pump out buildings, I'll probably send it a food trade route at some point. I already a worker ready to immediately improve its tiles, also note that with 2 Lapis from this city I can reach my monopoly.

carthage (24).jpg


My capital built two archers after Mausoleum and will get my final settler next.


Spoiler 4th City :

Gades is placed right next to the capital. This is something I do very often as a way to support the capital while also generating more population and faith. I usually like having a city right next to my capital because the capital will have many strong tiles and specialists and sometimes cannot use them all. So here Gades can work the tiles the capital won't have enough population for yet. Beyond that, it gives faith, which I need, and helps me to reach my monopoly faster. It looks like I can get the monopoly before my first golden age for an extra 2 turns, I'm intentionally not exploring at the moment so I don't complete a natural wonder quest and get golden age points yet.

Gades immediately receives a production trade route so it can catch up quickly.

carthage (25b).jpg


I'll take a moment to discuss the Pros and Cons to more/less cities. The first, and I think most important thing, when it comes to putting down a city as tradition is you want the tools to support it so it quickly becomes productive. A city that just plops down at 1 hammer per turn does nothing but slow down your science/culture and cost happiness. That's why I want to sit at 6 population for a while, collecting culture and science and building stuff, before I settle again. Once I've built workers or improved tiles, I want another city to use those resources.

When the city settles, ideally I already a worker ready to help it, and I'm going to start by improving a production tile (or culture/science/faith if possible). NOT FOOD, the first goal for a city is to build shrines and monuments, not grow into weak tiles killing happiness. Alternatively, you can send a trade route, like I will here, for production to quickly get the key buildings up and running. Or you can share tiles with your capital, ideally something with good production like improved tea or marble.

Pushing more cities will give more faith and more population for the national wonders. They will eventually give production and gold too, but that pay off takes a while. Generally you need something special (pantheon bonuses, natural wonders, civ uniques) to make cities give culture and science in the short term. So if pursuing wonders, know that settlers hurts.
 

randomnub

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Damn there's no way I can play enough before the next patch (hopefully) hits and, among the nice congress things, fixes the cothon and the broken Building_BuildingClassYieldChanges :mischief:. I'm not going to compare how progress would do here but judging by those early screenshots that's not a map where Dido's strengths will ''ruin'' your tradition test. A pretty neutral game, very nice of you to showcase Tradition here.

A keen eye may have noticed that before even scouting, you can tell that this location had freshwater by hovering over the tile. That means I'd be next to either a lake or oasis and I could build a bath.

And here I thought I was the only maniac to do that :D I once spot a Victoria's starting location due to that.

I would have settled Hippo Regius 1 tile NE, over the horses, to be able to build a fort on the hill where you settled, but I'm a sucker for canals and that would let me dominate that small inner sea if Russia went hostile.
 

CrazyG

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Damn there's no way I can play enough before the next patch (hopefully) hits and, among the nice congress things, fixes the cothon and the broken Building_BuildingClassYieldChanges :mischief:.
Great Cothon and other national wonders are already fixed.

I would have settled Hippo Regius 1 tile NE, over the horses, to be able to build a fort on the hill where you settled, but I'm a sucker for canals and that would let me dominate that small inner sea if Russia went hostile.
In hindsight I think this would have been a better settle location. generally I'd rather have the city on the outer sea than the inland.

I originally wasn't planning on putting my 4th city on the inland sea, which meant if Hippo wasn't on the inland sea I could never improve the crab, which I wanted the ability to do.
 

randomnub

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Great Cothon and other national wonders are already fixed.

Not in the 2.7.3, the hotfix post hasn't been updated and on the github it only says it's fixed for the next version. Does it look fixed with the tradition NWs in your game?

Damn, page 17 .dll hotfix. I might give it a try :D
 

besset

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Why did you not target hanging gardens in this game? Is it because you're too unlikely to get it? What did you prioritize instead?
 

CrazyG

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Why did you not target hanging gardens in this game? Is it because you're too unlikely to get it? What did you prioritize instead?
Getting it is unlikely. Instead I built the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus, and for my tech path I pursued a fast sailing for the extra trade route, then drama and poetry for the cultural boost.
 

stii

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Mausoleum of Halicarnassus is also a lot better under the more recent patches WLTKD trigger off lux you already have so now it can just last forever. And slightly better as Carthage as you get a stone works to run internal trade routes and you will get two extra TR pretty early.
 
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