Detailed Tradition Game

[Thibix Magnus]

Spoiler Thoughts on religion :

You are able to make a strong religion that doesn't require spreading:
Divine Inheritance + Sacred/Calendar/Syncretism + Inspired Works gives 3 a really strong capital with no need to spread (Sacred Calendar has a reward for spreading but its minor).

Religious spreading is a battle of attrition which tall empires are really bad at. With that said, ancestor worship really needs a nerf because it just puts you in too good of a position religiously. I don't think I agree on churches, they are useful for some strategies but not especially for a tall tradition-artistry-tourism game. I certainly wouldn't pick it in an OCC, you can just get a free church from Hagia Sophia if you really want that extra faith. Just one church in the capital is enough to get that +1 faith per great work to basically all great works.

You certainly can win a tradition-fealty game, but you want to do a lot of things differently, and that's the situation I'd consider churches (and if I got a theology wonder, I would go for Boroburdur instead of of Hagia).

Yes, being able to faith purchase archeologists is a big deal. Not just because of production, but because they are instant, so you get each site completed a few turns earlier, the next one started a few turns earlier. It also means you only need to have completed a single public school to immediately reach your max archeologists (3), and it doesn't delay building Louvre (which allows you to temporarily have 5 on the field).

I think archeology is sneakily one of the strongest techs in the game.

Spoiler Thoughts on religion :

hmm ok, I may have overestimated churches, but to me they were a good follower to increase pressure and defend your religion, I don't use it for the extra faith for myself but as passive defense in the non-founder AIs that I convert, who in turn buy churches. Also a belief that doesn't help that much the non-founder AI, besides giving them more faith for their own inquisitors.

 

[CrazyG]

Spoiler Thoughts on religion :

hmm ok, I may have overestimated churches, but to me they were a good follower to increase pressure and defend your religion, I don't use it for the extra faith for myself but as passive defense in the non-founder AIs that I convert, who in turn buy churches. Also a belief that doesn't help that much the non-founder AI, besides giving them more faith for their own inquisitors.

Spoiler On Churches :

I haven't seen your game but my question is what are you gaining by 'defending' or spreading your religion? Here's how spreading affects the beliefs I picked:

• For Apostolic Tradition, I actually don't want passive pressure, I only collect food for missionary conversions. I do get faith whenever I discover a tech, based on number of followers. So I do spread some, but I'm not going to spend a follower belief just to squeeze a bit more faith out of this (late game I reach the cap regardless).
• For Mastery, I need to be a majority, but beyond that follower count doesn't matter.
• For Synagogues, it doesn't matter how many followers I have, in fact if my city temporarily converts to another religion, I could build their buildings too, so it might actually be an advantage.
• For Inspired Works, again, no benefit to spreading.
• For Sacred Calendar, I do get 3 gold and 3 GAP per city following my religion. This does somewhat encourage spreading, but how much should I invest? How much science should I give up to spread to spread?

So in terms of defense or passive spreading, there aren't a lot of advantages.This isn't a claim that churches are bad in general, but a claim that they would be bad for this particular strategy. If you create some rewards for yourself from spreading (such as ceremonial burial like you mentioned), then churches are more reasonable. They are also better on Pangea, just because of how pressure works. In this situation you might want to consider taking Fealty over Artistry, because it gives a lot of faith and a lot of religious pressure. Notably in this game, Indonesia likes fealty so its really difficult to beat him in a religious contest of any kind.

I don't factor if a religious belief helps/hurts someone I spread to when picking beliefs, I just go with whatever is best for me. In theory those civs become your allies, you shouldn't mind them being strong, and typically the top AI to overcome are the ones who create their own religion. I guess Brazil and Russia not having synagogues would 'help' me in that they have weaker armies, but I'd have less science too, and synagogues have clearly been a net positive for me relative to Indonesia.

This is a long answer but you asked a very good question.

 

[Thibix Magnus]

Spoiler On Churches :

I haven't seen your game but my question is what are you gaining by 'defending' or spreading your religion? Here's how spreading affects the beliefs I picked:

• For Apostolic Tradition, I actually don't want passive pressure, I only collect food for missionary conversions. I do get faith whenever I discover a tech, based on number of followers. So I do spread some, but I'm not going to spend a follower belief just to squeeze a bit more faith out of this (late game I reach the cap regardless).
• For Mastery, I need to be a majority, but beyond that follower count doesn't matter.
• For Synagogues, it doesn't matter how many followers I have, in fact if my city temporarily converts to another religion, I could build their buildings too, so it might actually be an advantage.
• For Inspired Works, again, no benefit to spreading.
• For Sacred Calendar, I do get 3 gold and 3 GAP per city following my religion. This does somewhat encourage spreading, but how much should I invest? How much science should I give up to spread to spread?

So in terms of defense or passive spreading, there aren't a lot of advantages.This isn't a claim that churches are bad in general, but a claim that they would be bad for this particular strategy. If you create some rewards for yourself from spreading (such as ceremonial burial like you mentioned), then churches are more reasonable. They are also better on Pangea, just because of how pressure works. In this situation you might want to consider taking Fealty over Artistry, because it gives a lot of faith and a lot of religious pressure. Notably in this game, Indonesia likes fealty so its really difficult to beat him in a religious contest of any kind.

I don't factor if a religious belief helps/hurts someone I spread to when picking beliefs, I just go with whatever is best for me. In theory those civs become your allies, you shouldn't mind them being strong, and typically the top AI to overcome are the ones who create their own religion. I guess Brazil and Russia not having synagogues would 'help' me in that they have weaker armies, but I'd have less science too, and synagogues have clearly been a net positive for me relative to Indonesia.

This is a long answer but you asked a very good question.

Spoiler On Churches (and fealty) :

thanks! indeed I only like churches to "hold" my religion over converted civs after I have spread it, indeed they are bad for your founder belief, it was just a remark that I had good success with tall CV and ceremonial/churches, so I derailed a bit the thread indeed, sorry for the misunderstanding

I do find holding your religion over other players can be the difference in passing and holding world religion - but again that's in immortal, not deity. Also I had a trauma of spreading mosques to Rome, maybe that's why I'm petty when sharing my follower beliefs...

Just a last thing on religion and Tall CV, would you consider tall fealty viable for a peaceful tradition CV? I find the extra pressure perk from Organized religion hard to understand, if it only applies on your own borders then it's not that useful for Tall. I've played several Byzantium OCC culture victories on immortal, haven't even tried fealty in such cases.

 

[CrazyG]

Spoiler On Churches (and fealty) :

thanks! indeed I only like churches to "hold" my religion over converted civs after I have spread it, indeed they are bad for your founder belief, it was just a remark that I had good success with tall CV and ceremonial/churches, so I derailed a bit the thread indeed, sorry for the misunderstanding

I do find holding your religion over other players can be the difference in passing and holding world religion - but again that's in immortal, not deity. Also I had a trauma of spreading mosques to Rome, maybe that's why I'm petty when sharing my follower beliefs...

Just a last thing on religion and Tall CV, would you consider tall fealty viable for a peaceful tradition CV? I find the extra pressure perk from Organized religion hard to understand, if it only applies on your own borders then it's not that useful for Tall. I've played several Byzantium OCC culture victories on immortal, haven't even tried fealty in such cases.

I'm happy to offer my thoughts on anything tradition related, it is a guide after all

So there's two things going on here:
1. You are playing OCC, which is different than normal tradition
2. You are playing Byzantium whose extra belief changes things a lot.

For non-Byzantium tradition, I think its hard to get enough rewards from spreading religion to justify the substantial costs it has. I typically lean away from Ceremonial Burial (and for an OCC I probably want divine inheritance). With Byz its easy because of that extra belief. If you think you can pass world religion and dominate that way, then absolutely go for it.

I wouldn't take fealty for an OCC, but for regular tradition it can work (so can statecraft, especially if you pass an early world religion).

 

[CrazyG]

Enter the Renaissance:

Spoiler Notes for the Guide :

This version of the mod had CS coups being very strong and paired to a very strong quest with great people points as a reward. This is probably going to be changed, which means in future games progress in science/culture will be a lot slower due to fewer great people.

I also expect city-states and world congress to harder to dominate in future patches (here I do very well despite putting very few resources towards them).

Spoiler Turn 143 :

I enter through astronomy, letting my missionary cross ocean to go convert some city states, and my capital starts on Chichen Itza. Then I'm going for the printing press, its always nice to be the one who founds the world congress.

Here I have a screenshot of each city, showing their tiles and what buildings they haven’t built, which I think is a decent summary of my build orders so far.

Spoiler Carthage :

Of 18 population, I have 7 tiles and 11 specialists. That’s tradition. You can see that it alone gives more than half of my culture and science.

My capital wants to build basically everything. Ideally, every single building in your capital should be invested because it’s the priority. It doesn’t build military or trade units. The more spare production it has, the more wonders you can get.

For upcoming buildings:

• I save circuses for when I need WLTKD.
• You can usually be greedy and skip defensive buildings in capital (I built walls just for a quest).
• Lodge and herbalist I’ll probably eventually get because they do have 1 science.
• Customs Houses are underrated, culture is good, and I’ll have banks somewhat soon.
• Caravansary is actually a pretty good building if running foreign trade routes. I’m not, so it’s a low priority (but I will get it eventually).
• Market only got built because I needed it for The Great Cothon
• Skip the harbor unless I really want the supply. Tradition capitals have high standards, coast and ocean don’t meet them.

Spoiler Utique :

This city is low production but that’s okay because its high culture and science. It’s a little behind the others (no temple, no university). For a concrete example of why that’s good, even if it never builds a museum and my other secondary cities do, this one still has more culture.

• Skip stable, only 2 pastures
• Skip stoneworks
• 2 plantations so I will get the herbalist eventually (it gives science)
• Eventually gets the harbor, 4 decent sea tiles
• Its been working those 2 writers for a long time, which has given me a great payoff in culture.
• From here on out, growth is pretty unimportant. All strong tiles are being worked, though eventually I will build a road and a village for one more. Other than that, this is pretty much the best it gets, just add specialists.

Spoiler Hippo Regius :

This city has the only stable I built, because it had 4 pastures (and I eventually steal another via citadel). That makes it a high production city that built a lot of my military.

• 2 culture specialists because culture is king. Probably won’t ever get a Great Writer but the yields alone are worthwhile.
• This city and the others still don’t have markets, and won’t bother until they want a bank.
• This city did build a stable because it has 4 pastures. Its my military city and will get a castle eventually too. It will skip lodge, herbalist and stone works until game end.
• This city’s job was culture and science, it never built military, and that’s okay.
• Build a castle at some point, coastal cities are vulnerable.

Spoiler Gades :

The point of this city is to be an extension of my capital. I have a lot of strong tiles, such as holy sites or academies, but the capital only has so many citizens. This city works them so the capital can keep on those specialists. Eventually, you should start slowly shifting the tiles away from this city, and towards the capital (because the capital has a better multiplier) and more specialists in this city.

• Never builds lodge, stone works or herbalist
• Chancery will be next (it gives very strong production due to number of allies I have).
• Skip the harbor for just 1 sea resource, unless you need the military supply
• Work 2 culture specialists to get that sweet return.
• This city also built some military, including 2 ships to brace for Russian offensives.
• I never improved that sheep or the plain next to it, because I was worried they’d just get pillaged. There’s no need to improve every tile.
• I left that wheat farm all game just to see if it was every worthwhile. It wasn’t.

Spoiler Spies and City States :

You should get a quest for a coup in a city-state, follow that quest, and after every coup, wait for the next quest and move him again. The great person yields are crazy, and if you are reading this guide in the future and can't understand how I advanced so quick, its probably because this quest got nerfed hard (which it deserves). Even if you aren't doing it just for the quest, coups are probably the best use of a spy. A single spy couping along with casually completing quests can easily ally at least half the city states that exist. Be careful though because coups can have a big negative diplomatic penalty.

Spying on major civs is really inconsistent in how long it takes so I generally avoid a city with more than 1 security star. The only spy mission I use here is after a spy is at level 3, send him to an extremely low security city, and do the kidnap specialists thing, its a nice bonus in the capital.

For CS quests, one thing to pay attention to is how they update. Generally, once you complete a quest, you'll get a new quest of the same type from a different CS. For example, if you immediately send a military unit as a gift whenever the quest comes, you can keep this updating every 5 turns consistently. For a lot of civs, you'll have a UU that ends up being cheaper to buy than the quest reward (gold) is, so you can keep buying units and gifting them for a profit.

The same thing applies to quests like connect a luxury, even if its expensive, by doing it you'll get another one faster, so can be worthwhile. I bought a few diplo units towards the late renaissance (after banks were complete), which is generally when I find gold is really plentiful. Generally with tall tradition gold/hammers aren't your strength so don't spend too much on city-states.

 

[hokath]

Enjoying this btw.
Your Gades and Hippo Regius screenshots are the wrong way around. I was confused for a hot minute

 

[bonniepbilly]

Talking about which buildings not to build, it would be great if there was a way to remove them from the list (temporarily), to make it easier to decide between the valuable ones every time…

 

[Roamy]

Just wanted to chime here that I thoroughly enjoy and appreciate this thread. As a former deity player for civ5, I've been having a hell of a time with Vox Populi, but I can't say my decisions are particularly well informed, and I frequently second guess what my choices are and what the best course of action is. Thank you for sharing your insight, and I hope you continue with the thread in the new year! <3

Edit a few days later: Could it be that the happiness changes impacts the build order more than I anticipated? I followed your general philosophy up until the medieval era, and I'm hurting for happiness a lot, even with a ton of luxuries. Mostly due to lack of markets I imagine (poverty unhappiness).