Determinates of Sexuality

[Cheetah]

Come on Cheetah, everyone makes some unconscious choices either by rote, or by simple habit. Its just simply human nature that frees up brain power for the things that actually matter.

Perhaps I make some choices unconsciously, but I'm always able to give the reason for my choice if asked for it. Many times the reasoning is completely irrational logic, but there is always a reason.

I lived and studied with 3 friends for 5 years at university, so we were basically always together. They tried to argue the same, but I always had a reason for whatever insignificant or significant thing I was doing.

But still, when did you choose to be interested in girls, and only girls?

 

[galdre]

Come on Cheetah, everyone makes some unconscious choices either by rote, or by simple habit. Its just simply human nature that frees up brain power for the things that actually matter.

So sexuality doesn't matter?

 

[MobBoss]

Perhaps I make some choices unconsciously, but I'm always able to give the reason for my choice if asked for it. Many times the reasoning is completely irrational logic, but there is always a reason.

I lived and studied with 3 friends for 5 years at university, so we were basically always together. They tried to argue the same, but I always had a reason for whatever insignificant or significant thing I was doing.

But still, when did you choose to be interested in girls, and only girls?

I chalk it up to making a choice that I no longer remember making. Such is childhood eh? All of us make a huge number of choices in childhood that we no longer remember even making. Why wouldnt this be one of those as well? I dont remember choosing to like the color blue more than I do red, but I undoubtedly made that choice at sometime in my life. Or why I like asparagus more than I do brussel sprouts, etc. etc.

So sexuality doesn't matter?

Since science hasnt been able to pin down the gene/chemical/behavior etc. etc. that determines this to any great extent, I think your question remains largely unanswered.

If you have noticed there are indeed some that say all sexuality is natural (or lack thereof), ergo none of it should really matter as we are just varying degrees apart but still human.

I dont ascribe to that, but if one defines the argument as being nature vs nurture, I guess I am arguing as humans, we have developed to the point where our nuture can overcome our nature.

 

[NovaKart]

If it was simply an unconscious choice made in childhood then wouldn't it be easy to change your mind later?

I'm also willing to accept that bisexuality is more common than many people realize. For one thing, when people find out I'm gay, occassionaly there will be some "straight" guy who is really bi and hits me up. Another thing is, here in the Middle East it's really common to meet guys who appear totally hetero but are willing to swing the other way because it's just a lot harder to find women since virginity is so important here.

Now I'm not one of those gay guys who says tons of straight men are secretly into it, I don't think that. But I do think it's a bit more common than many people think.

Another thing, my sister is bisexual and she's had a couple relationships with women that totally freaked me family out. She says she's equally attracted to both but tends to go with men more, perhaps because it's just easier. Well now she's married, to a man and they seem to have a great relationship so I think they'll stay together.

 

[MobBoss]

If it was simply an unconscious choice made in childhood then wouldn't it be easy to change your mind later?

Not necessarily. Learned behavior established over a lifetime or long period of time is not easily changed. Humans are creatures of habit, and once those habits are formed, they can be hard to break. I dont think it impossible, which is why I tend to give credence to those who claim to have changed their sexuality.

 

[NovaKart]

Do you have an example of a case of someone changing his/her sexuality that you feel is genuine?

 

[innonimatu]

I am skeptical of this idea. I don’t think that sexuality is one hundred percent dictated by biology. I can point to instances of situational homosexual behavior that seem to override the default heterosexuality of the participants. Single sex relations in prison and “experimentation” among young adults come readily to mind. Furthermore, I’ve seen psychological research, although I can’t immediately cite it, that suggests that female homosexual behavior occurs, in some instances, due to social pressure. Furthermore there plenty of women who have entered homosexual relationships after many years of dating, or being married to, men. This is not to say that I do not think that biology plays a role in determining sexuality, merely that I don’t necessarily think it hold sovereignty over the subject all of the time.

My difficulty comes in that I am a liberal / progressive supporter of gay rights and other supporters of gay rights generally reject the notion that sexuality is anything but a biological mandate. To complicate matters, many people who oppose equality for homosexuals seem to subscribe to the notion that sexuality is determined, at least in part, by one’s environment and choices.

I'm also skeptical of that idea, and it irks me to see it used as a basis for demanding rights. Freedom to chose what one does with oneself and a willing partner should be the sole basis for demanding "rights", and if religions founded by long-deceased schizophremic "saints" have an issue with that, let them stuff it.

Having said that, I think that there is biological bias, or at least something which comes up so early in life and is so permanent that it might as well be called biological, even if we can't still pinpoint a specific origin. But a freedom of also "fishing" out of that preference remains, though most people choose to accommodate themselves into only one "type" and thus entirely drop it. Perhaps choice is not the right word, I'm not claiming that it is a conscious, deliberate choice, I just suspect that there in no inhibiting biological element to it, it is a result of learned mental processes.

 

[MobBoss]

Do you have an example of a case of someone changing his/her sexuality that you feel is genuine?

To be honest, I have only given it a very casual perusal previously and its limited to only what I have read on the net in regards to it.

I know that there are many that claim its genuine. Do you automatically assume they arent?

 

[LucyDuke]

Anyway, yeah, I completely reject the idea that choice is a substantial factor in sexuality.

I also don't see why it matters. We make loads of concessions to religious people based on something that is surely a choice.

 

[NovaKart]

I don't know. I know that sexuality is a strange thing that is difficult to pin down and that for me it was never a choice. I mean I don't know what caused it but I feel that it would be impossible for me to change it now and it's something I felt from a very young age before I even understood it.

Are there some people who can change it? Well I think those people are either heavily in denial or are some degree of bisexual. I can't project my own sexuality on everyone who is homosexual but I figure there must be some with similar experiences.

 

[Elrohir]

I think it's pretty undeniable that there's some sort of genetic or hormonal issues at play -- certainly a great deal of sexuality seems to be independent of either cultural or conscious choice, anyway. But I agree that there's more to it than that; what your culture says is acceptable or not also significantly shapes how your mind works, and what you choose to do in turn affects what you think about, and later do.

 

[Yeekim]

I think that what first needs to be understood is that there is a difference between sexual orientation and sexual behaviour.

Now, the first is most definitely biologically pre-determined for us. It needs to be. If males weren´t "programmed" to be interested in females and vice versa, most species on this fine planet of ours would go extinct pretty damn fast.

On the other hand, we know that nature sometimes "screws up". This is, again, demonstrated by the fact that most vertebrates are known to have homosexual relations as well - including creatures who aren't exactly social and in whose case, consequently, such habits can´t be explained away as "evolutionary beneficial bonding behaviour" or whatever. Either it is a gene mutation or a hormone imbalance during embryotic development or both, but something, from time to time, gets some of us and turns them gay by default.

On top of sexual orientation, however, is sexual behavior, which is 100% cultural and social phenomenon determined by environment and experience, even including conditioning, reflex actions and so on. It would most likely be possible to "train" someone to be aroused only by Captain America action figures, nevermind such relatively trivial changes like alternating between men and women.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

I'm of the opinion that sexuality is biologically determined, but leaves room for alternatives in some, and perhaps under certain conditions. There are enough people who have experimented with homosexual sex, but never stuck to it because they just didn't like it enough. There is also the prison population that leads to homosexuality due to lack of choice.

I don't really care what the origin is as far as gay rights are concerned. I don't think being gay is a legitimate reason to discriminate. They do not contribute to public disorder or subversion, and don't bother anyone more than anyone else does.

 

[Arakhor]

Well, I certainly choose not to have sex, so I define my own sexual lifestyle (i.e. none), but I don't (and didn't) choose to be bi-romantic. Either way, "they" say that bisexuality is much more common but, as Mathilda says, it's much easier to overlook or simply not mention when relevant.

 

[kiwitt]

To me it does not really matter whether we have the genes or not, we choose to live the lives we chose, because we like that way of living.

There are many inherent gene-based characteristics; IQ, EQ, race, talent, etc. Sexual orientation is just one of them. How we either overcome these or accept them is where the matter of choice comes in.

Further on this;
- We are born short, but we overcome this shortcoming and excel at what we want to do
- We are born not so clever, but that does not stop us achieving our goals
- We are handicapped in some way, but we overcome these and have a full life.

These and many other examples proves that choice and will power are more important than how we are born, and why I feel choice is more important in determining who we are than any genes. From what I understand from life it is your will-power to decide your choice and to stick to it, that is more important than any gene you may have. There are many instances of people overcoming their gene-based breeding and living a life they choose and often bettering themselves, regardless.

If you are comfortable living the life you have chosen, then that is all that is important.

 

[Artifis]

We are born not so cleaver, but that does not stop us achieving our goals

You're the first person I've met who believes that by not resembling cleavers we're being stopped from achieving our goals. DANG.

These and many other examples proves that choice and will power are more important than how we are born, and why I feel choice is more important in determining who we are than any genes. From what I understand from life it is your will-power to decide your choice and to stick to it, that is more important than any gene you may have. There are many instances of people overcoming their gene-based breeding and living a life they choose and often bettering themselves, regardless.

More seriously now...

All your examples deal with more non-emotional handicaps. Sexual orientation, however, seems to be a very emotionally-charged component of peoples' beings. As such, choosing to override it would probably just end up in much pain and misery, not least because of all the self-denial that goes on.

 

[kiwitt]

Well some people are born with a low EQ ("emotional quotient") and find ways of overcoming this. I think sexual orientation is just like any other "emotional" desire and you can overcome it.

Think of the worst form of "sexual desire", and people can be taught to overcome these, sometimes to society, abhorrent desires and ensure that they do no harm to others in the future. They are taught "self-denial" is a good thing, and no real harm is done to them. These desires could very possibly be gene-based and inherent in them, but we ask people to overcome them, for the good of their lives (and our society at large). What makes "homosexuality" any different to other sexual desires that can be overcome.

All this goes to the argument that it is more a choice that can be overcome, with sufficient willpower, and realising that there is more to life than sexual satisfaction.

NOTE: My personal view on sexuality is "What consenting adults choose to do in the privacy of their home, where no one is harmed or maimed is no concern of ours."

 

[Mathilda]

You are viewing sexuality as sexual desire.
In my opinion it's a bit more than that.
I see sexuality as a potential for a committed relationship, romantic desire, all that goes to wanting to share your life with someone. I see sexual desire as a part of that, but it's not the whole picture.
Narrowing it down to just sexual desire makes it sound like a fetish. It's not a fetish, it's an identity.

 

[kiwitt]

Then why not call it a relationship choice and not a sexuality choice.

Are you saying people choose to live with people they have a good relationship with, not because they sexually desire them ?

Why does it need to be an identity or identified with ?

 

[NovaKart]

Why identify yourself with something as arbitrary as your skin color or where you were born?