[DEV] World map - discussions / design phase

Gedemon

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Now that we have everything needed for resources placement thanks to ruckingit, I'm starting to design the new world map.

There are a few things that you can help me with, but first I want to discuss the limitations.

On a giant map, we all know that there will be issues related to the game's engine, it wasn't designed for maps this size, so we have to try to optimize everything on our side.

The obvious start is converting most of the code from Lua to C++, the lag at the end of the turns on the current version is due to calculations made in Lua (routes for convoy, path for supply lines, checking captured territory, resources procurement, etc..)

I can do that, but it will take some time and it will be *very* difficult to keep compatibility with existing scenarios. The easier/faster way (which doesn't mean it will be ready anytime *soon*) may be to froze the development of the Europe/Stalingrad scenarios and start a complete new mod/framework for the new scenario, then convert the old scenarios.

What I have in mind is to make a new "base mod" for the code (basically a DLL and a generic database for units/projects, etc), to keep the "data mod" as it is (but add new art) and have "scenario mods" for each map (with custom code in Lua and XML/SQl files to change the generic data)

But that won't be enough, we need to limit the number of AIs on the map if we want it to be playable, which means that I'm going to have only China, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, U.K., U.S.A and U.S.S.R. as major civilizations.

We also need to limit the number of cities for majors, which means UK/French colonies will be represented by allied minor civilizations, grouped by continents (like North Africa French colony, Middle-East U.K. Protectorate, etc...), and when possible I will also regroup some country under one minor civilizations (independent South America nations)

But I'd like to know if you think that some nations must be represented by a separate CS and why.

The number of units will also be a challenge, on some front like western Europe, I think we have to raise the UPT limit to maybe 4 or 5 on land (2 "divisions" and 3 "regiments") and maybe allow 3 or 4 on sea because of the Mediterranean theater (1 "capital" ship, destroyers, submarine and convoy/embarked units), but we must keep the global number as low as possible.

a low number of city also means that we need airports improvements and maybe "harbors" improvements (but no, I don't mean "buildable" improvements, we must keep it simple for the AI)
 
which means that I'm going to have only China, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, U.K., U.S.A and U.S.S.R. as major civilizations.

Sound fine, adding a minor as major could also be an option is the game setup if there is much demand.
 
As for capital ship, its a hard matter! Having to chose between a battleship or a carrier when both are needed.
 
I would keep three categories independent:

1. The initial countries invaded in '39 and '40 for the sake of historical accuracy. Poland, Finland, Norway, Denmark, ...

2. Countries with a substantial resource who substantially supplied a major power or could have:

Oil: Venezuela, Dutch East Indies, Romania, maybe Libya.
Coal: Belgium, India, Poland, Australia.
Iron: Sweden, Malay States, India, Australia, Spain, Algeria.
Alum: Guiana, Surinam, Malay, Dutch East Indies, Yugoslavia.
Personnel: Canada, India, Australia.

3. Maybe a few countries with a strategic value who could have changed sides for the sake of alternate scenarios: Spain, Switzerland, Panama, Mexico, Turkey.


Thoughts:
If convoys were based on owning a resource, rather than the country, we could simplify further.

When I played the world maps, more than half of the time each turn was waiting for the 'barbarian' turn to process. I'm not sure what was being computed at that point. Even with UK spamming Sptifires or Russia spamming infantry, those turns didn't seem to take much time.
 
Sound fine, adding a minor as major could also be an option is the game setup if there is much demand.

It can't be an option it would use the same amount of memory, it would have to be added as a modmod (or a separate scenario)
 
I would keep three categories independent:

1. The initial countries invaded in '39 and '40 for the sake of historical accuracy. Poland, Finland, Norway, Denmark, ...

2. Countries with a substantial resource who substantially supplied a major power or could have:

Oil: Venezuela, Dutch East Indies, Romania, maybe Libya.
Coal: Belgium, India, Poland, Australia.
Iron: Sweden, Malay States, India, Australia, Spain, Algeria.
Alum: Guiana, Surinam, Malay, Dutch East Indies, Yugoslavia.
Personnel: Canada, India, Australia.

3. Maybe a few countries with a strategic value who could have changed sides for the sake of alternate scenarios: Spain, Switzerland, Panama, Mexico, Turkey.


Thoughts:
If convoys were based on owning a resource, rather than the country, we could simplify further.

When I played the world maps, more than half of the time each turn was waiting for the 'barbarian' turn to process. I'm not sure what was being computed at that point. Even with UK spamming Sptifires or Russia spamming infantry, those turns didn't seem to take much time.
Yes, it make sense to keep nations with resources independent.

I'd like convoy to be based on deals, you would have to pay gold (or send it in convoy first)

on the old world map it's the territory (check if a block should be captured because it has no link to a city) update that take a lot of time.

It happens actually after the barbarian turn, but there is no display for "no player" there... (but I may change that speaking of it)
 
Here is the Mediterranean area from the "Play the World extended" map, at this moment I've just done a few alteration: enlarge the Red Sea to add ocean tiles for faster travel, and move a few islands around.

Spoiler :


But the area is still very small for a good theater of operation, what to you think of those changes:

- cut 2 lines of tiles in the middle of the Sahara and move all of the North Africa coast to the south (and adding the Tangier-Tetouan region to keep the Strait of Gibraltar)

- cut 1 line of tiles west of Turkey to enlarge the Aegean sea (and move the island north of Crete to the east to represent Rhodes for Italy)

- cut 1 line of tiles north of Turkey to enlarge the Black Sea

- remove Corsica

Thoughs on that and other suggestions ?
 
For U.S.S.R, I've placed Moscow, Stalingrad, Leningrad, Murmansk and Sevastopol as a base.

which other cities MUST be on the map ?

edit : reworked Mediterranean and Europe
Spoiler :
 
I like the idea of moving the North Africa coast south; even 1 tile would help substantially.

I'm neutral on the Aegean. I don't recall the Aegean being of much strategic value and I rarely used it on TK's '42 map. Crete and Cyprus were nice for British harbors and strategic bombing bases.

I'm neutral on the Black Sea. It would add more possibilities but I believe there was really only one Soviet battle group in it.

I like removing Corsica.
 
Because the decisions to take cities or drive past them were so critical to Operation Barbarossa, I would add a primary and secondary line of cities to the west of the primary objectives:

Primary:
Maybe one of the Baltic's like Vilnius, Riga, or Pskov.
Minsk
Kiev
Maybe Odessa.

Secondary:
Smolensk
Kharkov
Kursk


If you're continuing on U.S.S.R. eastward, I'd suggest:

Baku for oil.
One or two in the Ural's for mines, Chelyabinsk or Yekaterinburg. Maybe both because they're the only two real passes through the mountains.
Novosibirsk and Yakutsk for resources.
Vladivostok for its port.
 
We can't put all of them, we'll have to make some choices (edit: the selection could be made to have some space between cities, and we'll have "urban area" for the others)

and which were the production cities in the east ?
 
I'd forgotten all about urban areas! How many cities are you looking to restrict it to?

Five cities: Minsk, Kiev, Smolensk, Kursk, Kharkov.
Four cities: Minsk, Kiev, Smolensk, large Kursk & Kharkov combined.
Three: Minsk & Smolensk, Kiev, Kursk & Kharkov.
Two: Minsk & Smolensk, Kiev & Kursk & Kharkov.

When they sent factories east, they would distribute them through smaller cities so it's hard to pick any particular production hubs. The Ural's had about 60% of production, the rest was distributed across the board.
 
We can't put all of them, we'll have to make some choices (edit: the selection could be made to have some space between cities, and we'll have "urban area" for the others)

and which were the production cities in the east ?

Urban Areas should definitely be used!

I have been messing around with some maps for aesthetic feel and also to add a little more production value here and there to some cities.

Urban Areas add a little boost to a tile's production, represent well some smaller cities/towns near larger ones, add a little more logic to the major roads/railroads for aesthetic purposes as they make the map look like it actually has the major population centers even if they aren't able to be named!

The tile production values might need to be balanced, but other tile improvements like Lumber Mills, Custom Houses, Camps, etc. add a great amount of diversity and realism to the look of the maps and could also provide some strategic value as they might have in real life.

Keep it up Gedemon and friends!
 
Gedemon!

Keep up the amazing work!

I have been messing around with creating a much smaller scale map and wanting to use Gedemon's WW2 units, supply mods, and the territory capture mod to make battle maps.

Specifically my first attempt is at the Hurtgen Forest as it was one of the longest engagements on the Western front.

I have a couple questions and suggestions that I think would be good for use in the Larger Scale maps as well.

1. Has anyone made a texture/TileImprovement/Unit that would resemble the Dragon Teeth tank traps scattered through the Westwall? I plan on using the bunkers that Gedemon added, but also wanted to have tiles impassable to tanks that looked like the thousands of concrete tank traps implemented.

2. Has anyone made a 3rd type of road? Really I want something that gives the tiniest of movement bonus that helps balance the railroad speed and normal road speed. There are many major roads which I want normal speed bonus on, but I want to create some more rugged trails that are still "roads." Anyone have an idea about how to do this or a good suggestion for textures for it? I think it would be good to use in the Larger Scale maps too not only for ease of movement, but as discussed above, it could be included to add aesthetics in connection with the many Urban Areas that can be used.

3. Since the scale of the map I am working on is so small, ~100miles x ~80miles, I wanted the capturing of towns to provide supply bonuses or the ability to get reinforcements.

It is a work in progress but will upload a screenshot soon to show what is up.

Thank you all and thank you Gedemon!
 
Hi guys, I could use some help on a few things:

Total population of the major civs in the thirties

population of the major cities (top 5-10 maybe)

population in the capital of minor civs

TIA
 
Interwar Poland (don't know if it's major or minor civ, but due to size and the start of the war itself I think it's relevant nonetheless):

Total population:
1931: around 31 million
1938: around 34,5 million

Cities (1938):
Warsaw (capital): 1,3 million
Łódź: 670 thousand
Lwów/Lviv: 320 thousand
Poznań: 270 thousand
Kraków: 260 thousand
Wilno/Vilnius: 210 thousand
Bydgoszcz: 140 thousand
Katowice: 130 thousand
Lublin: 120 thousand


Towns in eastern Poland, today Belarus or Ukraine (not in top 10, but relevant to fill out the borders on civ map, or they were capitals of eastern administrative regions):

Stanisławów: 60 thousand
Brześć nad Bugiem/Brest-on-the-Bug: 50 thousand
Łuck: 40 thousand
Tarnopol: 35 thousand
Nowogródek: 10 thousand


My town - Tarnów, 50 miles (or 80 kilometres) east of Kraków - is infamous for being the one from where the very first transport of Polish prisoners to Auschwitz camp was launched in 1940 (transport of Jews began at a slightly later date). In 1939 it had around 55 thousand population, about 40% of it Jewish. From 1927 it is home to an important chemical plant.
 
Thanks, now I just need a WWII leader ;)

But seriously, even if I'll work first on a version with a limited number of civs, I think that the new framework for the mod will allow easier modification of a scenario to include more civs.
 
Anyone want to pick Germany, UK, USA, USSR, Italy, Japan or France ?

No urgency, but it will save some time when I'll get back to the map after coding...
 
Country U.S.
Date 1 st april 1930
Population 122 775 046
City New York 6 930 446
Détroit 1 568 662
Los Angeles 1 238 000
Chicago 3 376 438
Philadelphie 1 950 961
Washington 486 869
 
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