Developers "fixing" things that aren't "broken"

[Bam-Bam]

Yes. Yumbo--let's keep this on the topic of "fixing things that aren't broken".

In any case, many of us have argued at length whether acts are exploits or cheats. Most of us have agreed to disagree on many of them. They DO matter in the context of the people with whom you play or compete--and for comparisons of similar games.

In this case--the changes to the game were to fix ACKNOWLEDGED BUGS, and to account for new features (SPHQ, corruption-reducing specialists). That Firaxis introduced a new bug(s) (or incompletely fixed the known bug) is egg on their faces. Water under the bridge. That they are attempting to fix their mistakes in a reasonable timeframe is VERY IMPORTANT.

 

[Yumbo]

Aggie:

My original replay was to your post in which you presented a list, and one of the items on the list was that the mass of players get angry with those who find the bugs after Firaxis fails to fix the bugs.

My response was simply that the anger was directed at those posters who seem to derive great pleasure from finding and carefully documenting every known exploit to demonstrate just how clever they are.

As to the FP bug, my argument is this: unless you cheat, it simply will not be an issue in most games. If you don't palace jump, you usually won't be in a position to take advantage of the bug.

Should Firaxis fix the bug? Yes. Do they look foolish for botching the fix not once but twice? Yes.

BUT, and this is a big but, were it not for those clever few, the rest of us would have a much more playable game.

I think the thrust of the thread is that for 98% of CivIII players, everything was working just fine. Now, obviously, there are issues.

 

[Bam-Bam]

BS. The rank corruption bug affects more games than just those with a palace jump. What part of that do you not understand?

BTW--I have NEVER used the "palace jump" as described. I HAVE moved my palace with a great leader--which is good policy if your palace is located in a position where you can only get one or two cities in close. I HAVE seen where there is an inappropriate reduction in corruption when the FP has a tight ring of cities, and the palace (or moved palace) does not.

As far as your 98% comment goes--I do not think the numbers are correct, and, even if they are--I do not care. The "2%" people to whom you refer also include a whole lot of folks whose imput has contributed to a more balanced, playable game than Civ3 out of the box. Without the input of all these folks--this game would have had 3-6 month legs--not 3+ year legs.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Yumbo: I just fail to understand your attitude. You're saying it's wrong to report bugs because the cure may be worse than the disease! And if someone takes pleasure in finding bugs (which I doubt anyone does), just what would be wrong with it?!?

Do you really want the developers not to try and correct bugs?

 

[Yumbo]

Well, I have been playing for some time now, over two years, and never had a problem. And I think many others feel the same hence the thread).

I'll concede, though, that it will be great when Firaxis finally gets it working the way it is meant to be working, once and for all.

And let's hope they disable the free palace jump while they're at it (no, wait, they'll probably just break something else in the process).

 

[Qitai]

What if I tell you now that over the two years, you have been unknowingly suffering 50% corruption, while another player using another play style have been unknowingly suffering 30% corruption? Both of you do not know you are suffering from different corruption level. Both of you did not cheat or exploit any rule, but because of different play style, you get different corruption level. Is this worth fixing?

P.S. This is exactly what is happening in Civ3/PTW.

 

[Aggie]

Originally posted by Yumbo
Well, I have been playing for some time now, over two years, and never had a problem. And I think many others feel the same hence the thread).

I'll concede, though, that it will be great when Firaxis finally gets it working the way it is meant to be working, once and for all.

And let's hope they disable the free palace jump while they're at it (no, wait, they'll probably just break something else in the process).

So the only thing that we REALLY see differently (on the topic) is the fact that I respect and thank those "fanatic" players for finding errors, discussing them and asking FIRAXIS to solve them.

 

[Yumbo]

And if someone takes pleasure in finding bugs (which I doubt anyone does), just what would be wrong with it?!?

No, that's not what I'm saying at all.

I'm saying there is a core group of players/posters dedicated to finding and using every possible exploit that they can (RCP, Free Palace Jump, and so on). For most of us, those who play a casual game here and there just for fun, such exploits never even enter onto the radar. And yet we're left with a less-playable game as a result of the actions of these few.

I'll go further and say that when they get this round of bugs fixed, there will be more. Someone will come here and post the great new exploit that they discovered, and some people will say great, look at that, and others will say oh no, we must patch it. But eventually the patches will run out (Firaxis won't continue patching this forever).

Cheaters will always find a way to cheat. There will always be the next Free Palace Jump, or RCP. Don't believe me? The FP Rank bug sat undetected for 2 years(!) I'm sure there are more, not only from CivIII, but also introduced with the C3C changes.

 

[microbe]

Originally posted by Bam-Bam
In this case--the changes to the game were to fix ACKNOWLEDGED BUGS, and to account for new features (SPHQ, corruption-reducing specialists). That Firaxis introduced a new bug(s) (or incompletely fixed the known bug) is egg on their faces.

Certain exploits are not bugs. Fixing them is nice, but it's not so important. Let's face it, exploits will always be there, you fix one and very probably we'll find another one, maybe even introduced by the "fix".

If you REALLY want to do it, please do it right, or don't do it at all!

 

[The Last Conformist]

microbe: The Rank bug is a bug, not an exploit. It happens to open for a fairly extreme exploit, but it's a bug.

Yumbo: It seems your problem should be with Firaxis, for bowing to the requests of this "core group". Firaxis, and solely they, are fully responsible for all and any changes in the various expansions and patches. And in this particularl case, if we can take Tavis's words at face value, the complaints about the Rank bug wasn't even among the reasons for the corruption change!

FYI, I seriously doubt anyone has seen the Rank bug and thought "great, I'm gonna use this!". It was encountered during retroengineering of the corruption system, and more or less immediately reported for what it was; an obvious bug.

 

[SirPleb]

Aggie's list, updated by The Last Conformist, might now be further amended to:

1) The game is released with a huge bug.
2) Astute players notice the bug and complain about it.
3) The developers do not figure it's worth fixing.
4) The developers change the relevant system for unconnected reasons.
5) Doing so, they inadvertly introduces a new bug.
6) Players who dislike the new bug blame the players who noticed the original bug.
7) Players who like the new bug applaud Firaxis for improving the game.

 

[troytheface]

here's a problem ..no palace thing comes up (nor is it on the "f" keys when u play c3c beta ..civ with plague. Always something.

 

[PorthosdPirate]

Originally posted by Aggie
Let me see if I understand this....

1. Firaxis creates a game called CIV3 with a huge exploit that breaks the game
2. The exploit is revealed by "fanatic" players and a discussion started about it
3. This discussion catches the attention of Firaxis
4. Firaxis agrees that this is indeed an error in the game and tries to resolve it
5. Firaxis fails to resolve the error properly
6. The people that found the bug and wanted to have it removed get the blame

....

That would be called a feature. Keep in mind folks. This site is one of Firaxis main sources for information about what the community wants. They read the forums and consider what is said. Who wants to bet money that they have looked at this thread and considered what is being said?


P.S. Just because they have not responded in this thread or turned out a "fix" for you does not mean they have not read the thread or had it brought to their attention.

I posted this before looking at Tavis' thread he started this morning. Guess I would have won this bet then

 

[LordKestrel]

If we're *****ing about things that weren't broken, how about the change to Shift-D. Whoever decided to change that from opening the diplomacy screen to making workers auto-clear pollution has obviously never used hotkeys in this game. If you try and conduct any type of extended diplomacy, it becomes very difficult if you have a worker as the active unit. For most of my games, all I have active at any given moment are a number of workers, and a few military units. This change forces me to either move all my workers before I try and conduct any dealings, or hit F2, scroll until I find the civ I want to trade with, and click on them. When I want to deal with a different civ, I have to scroll to find it, and then click on it. With the diplomacy screen, a quick Shift-D brings that up, and I can quickly choose from the list of civs. No scrolling needed, and it comes up faster than the F2 screen.

PLEASE get rid of Shift-D as auto-clear pollution, and keep it as the diplomacy menu.

 

[Marlor]

Originally posted by Qitai
What if I tell you now that over the two years, you have been unknowingly suffering 50% corruption, while another player using another play style have been unknowingly suffering 30% corruption?

30%, 50%?

I'd estimate that I get more than 75% overall corruption. Everything outside my main core of cities is useless with the current FP.

 

[Qitai]

The numbers are just examples. The actual number is dependent on the empire size and playstyle. The point here is that people are getting more/less corruption due to reasons unknown to them. And those reasons are not logically at all and has been acknowledge as bugs that needs fixing.

I don't want to go into any details here since it has been explained. Just read the relevant threads if you are interested.

 

[Catt]

Originally posted by jimmydean
If we're *****ing about things that weren't broken, how about the change to Shift-D.

[. . .]

PLEASE get rid of Shift-D as auto-clear pollution, and keep it as the diplomacy menu.

CTRL-SHIFT-D now does what SHIFT-D used to do, whether a worker is active or not.

 

[USC]

Nevertheless, jimmydean is right -- it was a dumb move to change the shortcut. Heck, I've read the Conquests manual several times and never noticed the new shortcut key (if it's even in there). For the first two weeks after getting Conquests, I considered filing a bug report, that's how much the pointless shortcut change puzzled me.

Since I discovered the glory of Shift-D, I've rarely gone back to F4. Shift-D is half-dead! Long live Shift-D!

Still, I guess we're a bit off topic here. Sorry.

USC

 

[The Last Conformist]

Apart from the unnecessariness of the change, it looks like poor design to me. Even if I used worker automation, I'd surely be hitting it less often that the diplo screen, wherefore the later ought to have the simpler shortcut.