[Development] Map Suggestions

Hightower

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As an off-topic sidenote, do you guys think a Sabean/Himyarite civ could work? It seems to me that it could be quite cool and exotic, and the Arabian incense somehow seems slightly wasted without it (since it was most relevant by far during classical antiquity).

There are a lot of civilizations that I think could work with the expanded map (but that wouldn't work before it is implemented). The Sabaeans are definitely one of them, but not the only one. I have a whole long list, personally; just in the Middle East I hope we can see some/all of the following (listed roughly by spawn order):

Sumer (~3500 BC, would require more time at the beginning too, so maybe not realistic)
Assyria (~2500 BC)
Hatti (~1750 BC)
Nubia/Kush/Makuria (~1650 BC)
Canaan/Israel (~1000 BC)
Saba/Himyar/Yemen (~800 BC)
Armenia (190 BC)
Oman (751 AD)
medieval Egypt (969 AD)
 
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freethink

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Out of all of these, I think I would be most excited about Nubia, Saba, and Armenia. Nubia and Armenia especially could be long-term games, a bit like China where they can struggle to survive to the early-modern period or later. For Units and attributes, one can look at Sword of Islam for inspiration. Nubia will struggle being caught between Egypt (or whoever controls Egypt and Ethiopia. Saba would facilitate to a much greater degree the ancient Indian Ocean trade routes, Himayatie barbarians will be a constant struggle for the Sabean player. An alt-history goal would be for them to survive until the rise of Islam.

Saba or Yemeni goals
Friend of the Emperors
-Send a great merchant to Europe, India, and China by 0 CE

Abu-Kariba
-
Build four Jewish synagogues and monasteries by 500 CE

Dhu Nwas
-
Ensure there are no other religions except Judaism, and to conquer/vassal Ethiopia before 630
 
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Crimean Lord

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Out of all of these, I think I would be most excited about Nubia, Saba, and Armenia. Nubia and Armenia especially could be long-term games, a bit like China where they can struggle to survive to the early-modern period or later. For Units and attributes, one can look at Sword of Islam for inspiration. Nubia will struggle being caught between Egypt (or whoever controls Egypt and Ethiopia. Saba would facilitate to a much greater degree the ancient Indian Ocean trade routes, Himayatie barbarians will be a constant struggle for the Sabean player. An alt-history goal would be for them to survive until the rise of Islam.

Saba or Yemeni goals
Friend of the Emperors
-Send a great merchant to Europe, India, and China by 0 CE

Abu-Kariba
-
Build four Jewish synagogues, monasteries, and a cathedral by 500 CE

Dhu Nwas
-
Ensure there are no other religions except Judaism, and to conquer/vassal Ethiopia before 630


Great ideas:)
Perhaps You should copy this post to "Generel Suggestions" bacause this branch is platform for users whom developing the future map:)
 

freethink

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Great ideas:)
Perhaps You should copy this post to "Generel Suggestions" bacause this branch is platform for users whom developing the future map:)

You can repost there if you like
But the thing is, we are talking about the new map or rather the results of that. This goes to a question about how much incense will be placed in Yemen, to facilitate their exports of frankincense.

I thought that exporting x number of incense could be part of the first victory goal, but I don't know how much of it will be in the region.
 

Leoreth

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There's also a "Which civs would you like to see in DoC" thread. Let's keep this thread focused on map suggestions.
 

freethink

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There's also a "Which civs would you like to see in DoC" thread. Let's keep this thread focused on map suggestions.

Understood.

Now is a good time as any to talk about the resources to be placed in Yemen, and how many more resources should be placed there according to the current map. The image below might be a guide for incense placement, based on major growing areas for Frankincense trees and the possible location of Yemeni Cities:
 

stormogulen

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Some random suggestions from my backlog, mostly concerning resources. No screenshots this time.

-There could be rare earths at Mount Weld in Western Australia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Weld). I believe it's one of the most important sources outside of China IRL.

-If we want an opium source in the Eastern Mediterranean area (likely native origin) it could be added in Lebanon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beqaa_Valley#Illicit_drugs).

-There should probably be henna dye near Meroë. Sudan is one of the largest producers nowadays, and although the sources I found are kinda sketchy it seems that Nubia historically was the most important regional source along with Upper Egypt (henna thrives best in really hot areas with dry air but moist soil).

-On the other hand the henna in Cyrenaica seems pretty skippable. It could be replaced by for example sheep or olives which have been major products of the area since the Greek colonization. Spices would have been perfect if silphium hadn't gone extinct already around the first century AD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium_(antiquity)), but would probably not represent anything relevant after that.

-There could be salt in Transylvania, for example near Cluj-Napoca (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salina_Turda). Salt production in the area was very important for medieval Hungary.

-I'd consider adding salt to Portugal (Fleur de sel - Wikipedia). It was an important product of the area from Roman times until the 20th century. It could go either 2N or 1S of Lisbon.

-There could be salt on the "Lake Tuz" salt flat in Anatolia, perhaps mainly to make the tile less worthless. Salt has been collected there since prehistoric times, and today it is by far the most important source of salt in Turkey.

-I think pearls near Panama have been suggested before. In any case they could be added in the Gulf of Panama (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_Islands).

-The western Azores islands have a wet oceanic climate and should probably be represented by the green islands variety. The larger eastern islands like São Miguel (with Ponta Delgada on it) are slightly drier (borderline mediterranean climate), but probably still lush enough to be grassland (São Miguel is nicknamed 'The Green Island'). In any case the land tile should probably be a forested hill. Also, the Azores are well known for dairy farming, so it could get a cow if we want to boost it slightly. Judging from the screenshot in the post linked here (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/development-larger-map-phase-i.632860/page-3#post-16156711), maybe the Azores should also be moved 1S. In reality Ponta Delgada is located slightly further south than Lisbon.
 
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Steb

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Spoiler :
Is the placement of the Nile in Egypt final? After playing Egypt a lot in the current map, I took a look at the new map overview, and the current shape of the Nile seems unsatisfactory to me. However, I remember there was some debate on how distant it should be from the Red Sea, and other issues, so I'm not sure if the area is open to further change.

In particular, the long north-south stretch between Memphis (Cairo) and Thebes (Louxor) is basically absent, and there isn't a good spot for Thebes at the moment. I think Memphis and Thebes should be able to coexist.

I can make a more detailed proposal if that'd be helpful.


EDIT: Actually, never mind, I think I was working from an outdated screenshot.
 
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Leoreth

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The Nile is driving me insane but if you still want to propose an adjustment to accomodate its cities better based on the current state, please go ahead.
 

Steb

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The Nile is driving me insane but if you still want to propose an adjustment to accomodate its cities better based on the current state, please go ahead.
I'll think about it. The screenshot in the below post is basically what it looks like right now, yes?
New update:
- added uranium in Madagascar
- minor terrain adjustments in the Americas
- minor terrain adjustments in South East Asia
- added and adjusted mining resources in South and Central Africa
- adjusted Halys and Karun river courses
- added oil in Libya
- added pearls in Arabia, Maldives (cowry), Western Australia, Baja California
- minor adjustments in India and Japan
- restored Hawaii to previous shape in the current map
- removed incense from Persia, Sindh, China, Japan, Ethiopia
- added incense to Somalia, Oman, Indochina, Indonesia, Deccan, Western Australia
- moved lower Nile west at the expense of the Gulf of Sirte

Most "adjustments" were resources or terrain/features on singular tiles, so there's not much to show. This leaves:
Spoiler :
View attachment 547042
More accurate Mississippi delta.

View attachment 547043
The new (old) Hawaiian archipelago.

View attachment 547044
The shifted Nile delta and lower Nile, note that resources have also been rearranged in the process. I also decided to change the delta tiles to marsh, since that land was not really developed in Egyptian times.
 

Leoreth

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Yeah, maybe some resources have been moved around since then, but nothing important.
 

Steb

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All right, so I tried placing the cities of ancient Egypt (from this reference map), as well as a few modern ones, to get a sense of how well the area works. I think it's pretty good already and doesn't need any major changes. But here are some ideas and suggestions for more minor improvements:

  • Swap the salt resource with the cotton: there is an area southwest of the delta that is called Wadi Natrun — valley of natron salt — and has been exploited for salt since antiquity.
  • Move Memphis one tile west, so that it is correctly on the west bank of the Nile. (I assume the placement of the unit in the screenshot is supposed to be Memphis.) Maybe the rationale for this placement is that Memphis is eventually supposed to turn into Cairo, which is on the east bank. In addition, a Memphis on the west tile couldn't coexist with Alexandria. These reasons are good, but there are reasons for the switch with the stone tile:
    • Geographically appropriate (all other cities in my proposal below are on the correct bank of the Nile)
    • The pyramids and sphinx are likely to be built there, and many people know that they're west of the Nile in the Cairo area
    • There isn't really an important city to give its name to this spot. Giza, maybe, but I don't think it was really a city back then. In fact I think the western tile should also be called Memphis even if the start spot is on the eastern tile
    • The eastern tile can be Heliopolis, a major ancient city that won't otherwise be represented
    • Better coexistence between Memphis and Thebes
  • I researched the oases; the ones we have now are fine to represent the major ones. The Dunqul oasis could be added west of the marble although that would probably be too many oases. The one in the south can represent the Selima oasis in Sudan, I think, but I'm not 100% sure.
  • Lastly, I know I've argued for moving the Nile west in the past, but... I think it might actually be good to move it back 1 tile east. It would be more accurate, and the Suez canal area (Port Said) should touch both the Red Sea and the delta. One consequence would be that the Thebes tile would touch the sea. I think this is not actually a bad thing for the following reasons:
    • Thebes is actually not that far from the sea
    • There was a route (Wadi Hammamat) in antiquity from the Thebes area to the Quseir site, so it wouldn't be weird that Thebes has access to the sea
    • Egypt may have traded with India and with the southern parts of Africa (Punt) by sea, so it makes sense to allow it to be connected to the Red Sea (which usually wouldn't happen since there isn't a strong reason to found a small desert port)
    • The Thebes tile would be more incentivized for settling
But overall, none of these changes are really necessary (although the Wadi Natrun would be a cool detail to add) and the map already looks really good.

Spoiler :
Civ4ScreenShot0166.jpg
 

Dracosolon

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Something like this, maybe?
Spoiler :

egypt.png



-Moved the Nile, resources and oasis west, starting from the Thebes line and up.
-Added one land tile for Alexandria and moved its Fish 1N.
-Moved ressources around to put the salt SE of the Nile.
-The hill and forests west of Alexandria could be moved closer for production, but I didn't touch them.

Cairo could be on the same tile as Memphis (it's a better tile anyway), though it ends up on the wrong side of the river.
 

Enyavar

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-Moved the Nile, resources and oasis west, starting from the Thebes line and up.
Squinting at Thebes: How do you prevent Egypt from early on building ships in the Red Sea, with Thebes there? Ancient Egypt wasn't much of a seafaring nation, and Thebes is notably not a seaport.
 

Steb

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Squinting at Thebes: How do you prevent Egypt from early on building ships in the Red Sea, with Thebes there? Ancient Egypt wasn't much of a seafaring nation, and Thebes is notably not a seaport.
Is it really necessary to prevent that? There just wouldn’t be a strong incentive to. But even if human or AI Egypt decided to build ships it wouldn’t be unrealistic. Ancient Egypt did use the Red Sea for maritime trade including with Asia. They also built a precursor to the Suez Canal, which indicates the importance of the Red Sea.
 

1SDAN

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Also there's not really anything out to the east that isn't blocked off by capes, I see no reason why you'd even want to build ships in Thebes
 

Steb

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Something like this, maybe?


-Moved the Nile, resources and oasis west, starting from the Thebes line and up.
-Added one land tile for Alexandria and moved its Fish 1N.
-Moved ressources around to put the salt SE of the Nile.
-The hill and forests west of Alexandria could be moved closer for production, but I didn't touch them.

Cairo could be on the same tile as Memphis (it's a better tile anyway), though it ends up on the wrong side of the river.
I gave this proposal quite a bit of thought and I’m not a big fan of the “staircase” shape of the southern Nile. I would either move the whole river east or not at all.
 
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