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Development pre 1.6

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by gilgames, Dec 12, 2018.

  1. Bernd-das-Brot

    Bernd-das-Brot Chieftain

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    Not really my first experience with the mod. I played years ago (maybe v1.1) nearly all civs - good to see it still gets better.:king:

    A bit more feedback after games with France, Enland, Scotland and actual Austria.

    - I agree that an update to the Norwegian UHV would be a good idea, but I think southern Italy should not be unsettled even with a new UHV. One of the oldest settled areas in the Meditarinian should not be empty.

    - England seems militarily too weak - at least against a human player. The Conquest of all England as Scotland was just a walk in the park. No walls, few units. They sacrifice their starting units against barbarians and independents and are an easy target after that.

    - AI builds too few walls - even in big developed cities. They should have a higher priority.

    - Conquest in general seems a bit too easy. (I conquered all Hungary with just the austrian starting Army in a few turns - centuries too early). This is more of a general civ4 problem than of the Mod. I think one important solution would be to remove the City Raider Promotions. If you have some heavy promoted city raider units, cities are more of a death trap than an defensive advantage for the AI. This leads to city conquest without casulties and huge snowballing for the human player. The AI does not seem to use CR promotions regularly.

    And/or make it impossible to remove all cultural def. modifiers - people defending their homes and families should fight always a bit harder. And more walls/castles, so the AI has more time to react to surprise attacks.


    Great Mod. Thanks again!
     
  2. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    I agree with this - richest civ is easy as you just run 100% gold for the last few turns.

    Maybe something to do with having the highest total gold / commerce yield from companies? So not only does Genoa have to attract Bank of St George but they also have to make sure it produces more than Ausburg, Hanseatic League and Medici Banks?

    Not sure it would be possible to code that?

    An alternative would be to switch Venice's colonial goal to Genoa, as Genoa had more trade outside the Mediterranean than Venice, including with Flanders, Portugal and Morocco, so more historic access to the Atlantic. Then Venice's third goal could be focused on the destruction of the Ottoman Empire (League of Cambrai).

    In fact, I'd propose the following three goals for Venice:

    UHV 1: Control the Adriatic and Aegean Seas by 1204AD (UHV 1 and 2)
    UHV 2: Have at least 30 warships by 1410AD (May need balancing)
    UHV 3: Destroy the Ottoman Empire

    Genoa

    UHV 1: As it is now
    UHV 2: Commercial domination - combine UHVs 2 and 3 with date of 1625AD
    UHV 3: Be the first to build a colony from the Age of Discovery

    That avoids the fact that UHV 1 is currently trivial for Venice as you start with enough settlers and only need conquer indie Ragusa. Also reflects Venice's naval dominance in the 1400s. Another option for that one would be for Venice to have total naval power of 150, i.e. sum of the strength of all warships, to encourage researching and building Galleas and the Arsenal.

    For Genoa it gives them an exploration as well as a conquest and commercial UHV.
     
  3. DC123456789

    DC123456789 Chieftain

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    I agree. Ironically the requirement for Genoa to conquer Thrakesion means that they are currently required to go to war with the Ottomans more than Venice is curently for their UHV.
     
  4. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    I gave a try to russia. It seems they are notplayable atm. And not bc you cant do the uhvs. However Tana still spawns with longbows, thats a problem.
    But it is not playable due to the constant frustration of how far you are behind, that nothing works out well, if something get straight by any miracle, the you are dowed or a plage kills all your army and workers.

    Its no wonder ai used to colllapse or get vassalized.

    A solution could be a tech boost and rate adjust or no barb spawn untill 1600 in the backyard. Also growth rate.

    I wanted to mention but it was topped in the russia game. The new feudal civics are terrible. Not growing while building army is sooo much setback for many civ. Like russia, kiev, ect. Nor i understand why it happend. The new apprenticeship make very hard the 2. Moroccan uhv too. Why where these changed??
     
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  5. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    That is ridiculous. Venice needed the Ottoman Empire. Indeed their trade boomed because of the Ottoman Empire. Control Constantinople and ensure no other trade companies in the East Mediterranean/Black Sea would make more sense. But be the richest state in the world would be another more relevant challenge.
     
    gilgames likes this.
  6. 8ha8ha

    8ha8ha Chieftain

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    I remember that Turk conquest Crete and kick Venice away in history
     
  7. ganker14

    ganker14 Chieftain

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    They actually had a lot of intense wars, which eventually ended with the defeat of Venice (and the beginning of their decline). Just think about the Battle of Lepanto https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lepanto , which is one of the most significant events regarding those wars.

    I think you are confusing with Genoa (there was a genoan colony in Costantinople even after 1453 as far as i remember)
     
  8. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    No, the point of those wars was to limit Ottoman expansion in the Mediterranean, and for the Ottomans to limit Venetian expansion in the Mediterranean. Neither of them wanted to eliminate wholesale the other. The goal of Venice was the expansion of commerce, and the Ottomans were quite useful in providing stability to expand Venetian operations in the region. Heck, the Venetians and Ottomans worked together as much as they fought against one another.

    Venetians having the biggest navy and large bank account, makes more sense in that regard.

    Genoa's "colony" is not like a New World "colony", it was just a trading quarter where they were FORCED to live in "Latin Quarter" (which was shared with other Italian merchants), centred around the Tower of Galata. Genoa never had the ability to seize major territory, like Venice did anyhow. Needless to say, because of the Venetian-Ottoman alliance, and because the Genoese had backed Constantine XI (last Emperor of Byzantium), the Genoese were kicked out by the Ottomans.

    Do not think in terms of "mercantilist" policies, the Ottoman (like other Eurasian empires) trade-economic policy was what historians call "Provisionism", basically complete free trade, import and export, so long as you gained a permit from the Sultan. The point was to ensure that the Ottoman domains remained provisioned with everything that its subjects required/wanted, and that meant ignoring balance of trade issues which so obsessed mercantilist European states.
     
  9. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    I had a game with austria...by accident :)

    I am a guy, who used to say, boost this, boost that...but now
    I say nerf them. It was just too easy. Gold no issue ever, research at 100% all the way. Conquest are fine, every thing is smooth. Nerf!
     
  10. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    What did they need them for? The only 'need' was to trade with the largest power in the East, Venice 'needed' the Byzantine Empire the same amount (and their trade boomed when the ERE was strong), that didn't stop Venice from supporting the 4th Crusade against it.

    Your argument is also oxymoronic. Venice only needed the Ottoman Empire after the Ottomans grew to control the trade routes to the East. If Venice controlled Constantinople then it would have sufficient control over those routes and the Ottoman Empire would be a regional irrelevancy. Maybe destroying the Ottomans takes the stretch goal a bit far, but Hungary already has the goal to keep the Ottomans out of Europe so there's no point duplicating.

    As we discussed above, being the richest state in the world is an irrelevancy - it's far too easy to run 100% gold for the last ten turns and win it by default, so it has no gameplay value. The trade companies goal might be interesting, but too dependent on luck - what do you do if a trade company spreads to a city you don't control, two turns before the deadline?
     
  11. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    When did Venice conquer Constantinople? I remember them supporting some Franks who set up a Kingdom there briefly, I don't remember them annexing the whole Byzantine Empire. See the difference?

    Lastly, I don't think you've played the latest version, gaining gold is no longer as easy as it was. That is a balance issue. Other economic indicators can also be taken into effect since I know Civ4 calculates things like trade.
     
  12. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    Getting rich after 1400 is still not an issue. But getting rich early on is impossible.
    And venice has more than enough war to do.
    They dont need more of it.
    Only think i can think of: allow no other ship in the mediterrean sea, then yours in 15xx. So you have to work toward privateers and actively do something. Ofc only ships on water count, not ships in cities. Nor workboats.
     
  13. cmakk1012

    cmakk1012 Chieftain

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    What about controlling Egypt, Constantinople, and both sides of the Straits of Gibraltar in 1500 or later for Venice UHV3? That controls pretty much all of the most important trade routes in and out of the Mediterranean, which was basically Venice’s main priority forever.
     
  14. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    Why on earth should Venice's goal be to control large tracts of land? Having a presence on certain islands on coastal areas makes sense, anything else does not. Controlling all of Egypt is just silly.

    Have their UHV be in competition to Genoa's UHV. They should compete against each other for trade power. Venice's power is trade, diplomacy (they established ambassadors/spies everywhere) and naval power.

    1) Controlling X historical areas

    2) Own Y ships

    3) Have the most trade income in the world

    These all make the most sense, and correlate to Venice's actual strengths. World conquest is not one of them.
     
  15. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    When did I ever say Venice conquered Constantinople? It's more productive for the mod if you can to argue against what I actually said, rather than what you think I said.

    Your proposed UHV was to "control Constantinople", in your own words. My point is that if Venice controls Constantinople in the game, then the Ottoman Empire is no longer important. As it wasn't in real life until it conquered Constantinople and gained sufficient control over eastern trade routes.

    I have played the latest version, and gaining gold is plenty easy once you have Trade Economy or Mercantilism. Regardless, a UHV to gain gold is not inspiring, interesting or challenging as it is just a case of switching to 100% gold at the right time. Also it duplicates part of the new Byzantine UHV, so is not unique.

    A trade based UHV could be interesting and challenging for Venice, but then that duplicates the current Genoan one. Sinking a sufficient number of ships might work, but then that could just be integrated into UHV 2.
     
  16. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    That is EXACTLY the point. They should be in competition with one another. They were historical competitors, and they should be fighting against each other for trade hegemony. I have no qualms with giving them the same UHV and perhaps even the same date to complete it.
     
  17. Swarbs

    Swarbs Chieftain

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    That seems a bit too hit and miss to me - one country launches one ship on the other side of the map on the day of the deadline and you lose. Also if there's to be a ship destruction aspect then I'd say it should be part of UHV2
     
  18. cmakk1012

    cmakk1012 Chieftain

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    Because the decline of trade through Egypt was one of the ultimate death knells of Venice and them directly controlling it would help them attempt to circumvent that. It fits well with the ahistorical aspect of UHV3s in general.
     
  19. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    Thats the point. You should be represented heavily everywhere on the sea, thus really dominating. Have vision where and what is build, to be prepared for it. Thats why its a challange. And absinthe can make sure that in the given date no barb ships spawn.
     
  20. The Turk

    The Turk Chieftain

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    Where did you get this idea from? Why did trade decline through Egypt?

    Anyhow, after 1517, the Ottomans forced Italian traders to trade in Constantinople.

    Needless to say, the Venetians were hit badly by the Black Death, and wars with Hungary, that their trade declined. Having the highest trade income still makes more sense to me, than annexing huge amounts of land. Leave that for the large Empires, Trade Republics should play differently on principle. They shouldn't be imitating the gameplay of other Empires which are conquest focused.

    Again, having this makes the most sense for UHV:

    1) Controlling X historical areas

    2) Own Y ships (you can already check this in the victory screen I'm pretty sure)

    3) Have the most trade income in the world
     

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