Development pre 1.6

[gilgames]

PS: if you do not reply, that a lot harder to discuss something, since we can only speculate what you can do or what not. Also you used to have a guiding ideas what we can expand and discus.

 

[cmakk1012]

For Genoa, I like both of these.
Banks + highest gold+commerce from companies.
Or 1st colony.
Which would be preferred?
(Venice will lose it's colonial goal.)

I’d prefer the commerce from companies because it sounds challenging and interesting.

I can also imagine something viking ponts like deal. Accumlate xxx points of trade power. 1 sunk a ship, 1 build a ship, 2 each costal city, 1 for OB, 1/trade routs, ect.
Where xxx is 200, 300 idk, needs to be tested.

This is a very compelling idea for Venice, and I’d totally forgotten about the AI propensity to stack boats in cities. So I’d prefer some kind of trade power points where building more boats and destroying other civs’ boats gets you points but you don’t have to control X percentage.

 

[AbsintheRed]

PS: if you do not reply, that a lot harder to discuss something, since we can only speculate what you can do or what not. Also you used to have a guiding ideas what we can expand and discus.

Yeah, the first part is definitely true, and I guess the second part is too, at least to some extent.
It's hard to be an active participant in most conversations though, when you can't spend as much time on modding itself as you would want to.

While I'm still able to mod fairly much - the big update took 500+ hours of modding, with all the bugfixing, design, implementation and testing - it's far from the golden age.
No wonder it took almost 10 months with my current pace. Altough some breaks were included too, even a big one during the summer
I guess it's more than noticeable that I have switched from the peaceful academic/university environment to the competitive sector.

Somewhat related... Well, actually it's pretty related to forum activity:
I should have released small updates frequently instead of the huge revision in the end.
No real point in waiting for most interconnected things to be finished. I tend to do that unfortunately.
It would have been at least 60-70 small revisions. Much better for the community.

Anyway, back to the main point:
I still have way too many plans with the mod, and more importantly, still enjoy modding and perfecting RFCE very much.
So the good news: If we can assume that the time I spend on Civ is constant, than the less I'm on the forums, the more time remains for actual modding

 

[AbsintheRed]

Have Genoa and Venice in competition with one another. Largest navy, historical colonies in the Mediterranean and Black Sea (where appropriate), and highest trade income.

But the AI doesn't go for UHVs. So instead of being in competition for each other, you just have two civs with the same goals and that play much the same, which is kind of boring.

My thoughts exactly.

In this save, you can see what excatly i imagined for the uhv.

The control x percent of ships is bad, due to ai behavior. They tend to stockpile ships in cities, makes hard to kill them.

I can also imagine something viking ponts like deal. Accumlate xxx points of trade power. 1 sunk a ship, 1 build a ship, 2 each costal city, 1 for OB, 1/trade routs, ect.
Where xxx is 200, 300 idk, needs to be tested.

This is a very compelling idea for Venice, and I’d totally forgotten about the AI propensity to stack boats in cities. So I’d prefer some kind of trade power points where building more boats and destroying other civs’ boats gets you points but you don’t have to control X percentage.

Well, ships in cities is one of the reasons why it can't be "only Venetian ships on the Mediterranean", like in the original suggestion.
On the other hand it shouldn't be a problem if it's 2/3 or another percentage. You can leave quite a few foreign ships around, and still win.
You should fight with your naval rivals, sure, and ideally destroy a significant number of naval units in the area. But you will be continuously pumping out new naval units in the meantime.
I imagine naval production to be at least as important as war.

I'm not sure if I want to go into a trade power points direction.
Would it be better for gameplay somehow?

 

[gilgames]

The more but smaller updates would be much appreciated! Also i think, you undervalue the forum here, i belive we could provide more help in testing and others. But its very good that u stil keen on improving it.

On the subject at hand: 1, cities are not ocean tiles, thus you can achieve 100% domination on sea, if you define the tiles requiered. Meanwhile trade power points can fit for both civ and the ai can passively give some competition, and thats something you have to work towards! Where colony goal is for major powers and by the time colonies became a thing, venice and genoa were not a nation state.

 

[Swarbs]

So the 1st UHV will be more or less the current 1st and 2nd UHVs merged.
While the ship-building UHV will be the second one.

Exactly. The first UHV is currently pretty trivial to achieve - just conquer Ragusa and get another settler if you also want to settle Zara. So merging it into the 2nd makes a more meaningful conquest goal.

For the 2nd one, it's differentiated from Aragon by virtue of being warships rather than trading ships. Also designed to stretch the Merchant Republic civic as much as possible, by forcing Venice to spend a big chunk of its wealth on maintaining a large navy (historically one of the barometers of power of the Republic).

Could potentially be improved by making it total naval power, rather than just number of ships, so there is an incentive to rush to Galleases and build the Grand Arsenal?

For the 3rd one, doesn't have to be conquer the Ottomans, but given that Venice's wars with the Ottomans, and subsequent territorial losses were a major cause of its decline, some conflict with the Ottomans should definitely be included imo.

For Genoa, I like both of these.
Banks + highest gold+commerce from companies.
Or 1st colony.
Which would be preferred?
(Venice will lose it's colonial goal.)

Could keep both of them - if the 1st UHV stays as it is then there is room for both a commercial and a colonial goal. Given the Genoese commercial colonies in Siviglia, Sale and Safi, you could achieve it by making Andalucia and NW Africa contested regions for them so they can establish / conquer cities there and gain AA without the usual revolt mechanics?

 

[Swarbs]

Well, ships in cities is one of the reasons why it can't be "only Venetian ships on the Mediterranean", like in the original suggestion.
On the other hand it shouldn't be a problem if it's 2/3 or another percentage. You can leave quite a few foreign ships around, and still win.
You should fight with your naval rivals, sure, and ideally destroy a significant number of naval units in the area. But you will be continuously pumping out new naval units in the meantime.
I imagine naval production to be at least as important as war.

What about a percentage of total naval power (i.e. total strength of all ships so galley = 2, war galley = 4, galleas = 8)?

That has the significant advantage of making the Galleas more valuable than the Gun Galley and thus making researching the UU much more useful and important for victory.

 

[The Low King]

Having a certain number of ships would be a good idea, its historical and forces economic development to support such a large navy. There should also be a requirement to have a larger navy than the Ottomans as part of it though, that would add another dynamic if the Ottomans are powerful.

For a third UHV, something relating to the Spice trade would be appropriate. It was the loss of their monopoly due to new routes around africa that began their decline, and that of the Ottomans. Im not sure just "building a colony first" really fits.

 

[Swarbs]

For a third UHV, something relating to the Spice trade would be appropriate. It was the loss of their monopoly due to new routes around africa that began their decline, and that of the Ottomans. Im not sure just "building a colony first" really fits.

Acquire a certain number of luxury resources by 1700AD could work for that one. It would force them to create an extensive trade network as IRL, and look to build good relations with other civs to access resources like gold, furs, cotton, incense etc which aren't in areas they can easily settle. Also means they can trade for colonial resources rather than having to buy them.

Although that type of UHV can be a bit hit and miss in the late game, if the AI civs aren't large enough to possess sufficient tradeable resources (e.g. Moscow and Novgorod have no spare fur to trade, Arabs / Egypt have no incense etc)

 

[gilgames]

I met a bug today, Spain was able to purge the "La Mezquita" from Toledo by rel.prosec.
and this time i have 2 save game for it.

ps: Moroccos uhvs seems to be impossible to me, the first due to stability, the 2nd due to lack of artists or time.

 

[Swarbs]

Morocco definitely needs some work imo.

As well as the collapse of Cordoda as discussed in other threads, they need a UU which is useful during the time frame of their conquests. The Black Guard dated from the 17th century, so beyond the time frame of any of their UHVs. Maybe a more advanced Berber Lancer? Light cav with Heavy Lancer stats to reflect the strong role of the Berbers in the Almohad Caliphate.

Also the UP is of limited value as there is only two desert tiles they will ever really use (the oasis and iron near Marrakech). I'd suggest something linked to their use of Christian soldiers in their armies, either a Janissary-style mechanic, or possibly the ability to recruit the UUs of Spain, Portugal and Aragon from Moroccan cities in Iberia. That would in turn encourage an early invasion of Spain, aided by a conquerors event in 1086 (Battle of Sagrajas).

Finally the Balears should start as a potentially stable area and only become a foreign area after 1248, once the 1st UHV is done. I can't think of many (if any) other civs who need to capture a foreign core area as part of their 1st UHV. It makes for a big stability problem.

 

[cmakk1012]

Finally the Balears should start as a potentially stable area and only become a foreign area after 1248, once the 1st UHV is done. I can't think of many (if any) other civs who need to capture a foreign core area as part of their 1st UHV. It makes for a big stability problem.

The Danish UHV is comparable; even though it’s UHV2 they have to hold onto a gigantic swath of foreign territory. It’s really difficult, but doable; the same can’t be said for Morocco.

 

[gilgames]

True story, nuff said.

 

[Brew]

Recently did a Morocco UHV on 1.5, and did have to restart a few times for stability, but I'm rather new to the mod and wasn't building manor houses. Successful attempt was still hairy until Cordoba collapsed, but then stability was ok. Built both epics in Marrakesh, teched for Apprenticeship and ran artists there. That gives two GA no problem and Marrakesh can reach 5k without a culture bomb. I definitely used the UP, building 3 oasis cities. Black Guards seemed useless, but came in time to destroy Castile. I admit, once I had those victory was apparent so I didn't finish.
Might have had to change strategy now that culture bonus for specialists is removed from religious law - think that was key for reaching 1k culture in other two cities. That's also disappointing, since I thought that was a good way of representing the cultured elite in Islamic societies without having artists available early game. Seems there is no more poetry in RFCE's Islamic world

P.S. Thanks a lot to AbsintheRed for all your hard work - so great to be able to have fresh CIV4 experiences 13 years after release. Much appreciated

 

[gilgames]

You can do it in 1.5, but with the surrent svn version, apprenticeship does not have unlimited artist slot, actually non, so no way to reach 5k in three cities.

Also if cordoba respawn, you get collapsing.

 

[Swarbs]

The Danish UHV is comparable; even though it’s UHV2 they have to hold onto a gigantic swath of foreign territory. It’s really difficult, but doable; the same can’t be said for Morocco.

I wouldn't say a gigantic swath - only Norrland and Osterland are actually foreign for Denmark (red regions where cities are -5 stability), all the others are contested (orange regions where cities are -2 stability).

Having to conquer and hold a city in a red region makes a very big difference, particularly when Morocco only has 200 years from spawn to do it, and needs to navigate the Aragonese spawn. Denmark has 600 years to prepare for the same, with the bonus gold from the Sound tax, so it's not actually all that challenging in my experience.

 

[AbsintheRed]

Wonderful to see so much feedback!

About the Moroccan UHV:
You are right, it's not yet updated to the new version.
Didn't really think it through what would be the effect of the recent changes on that one.
So yeah, we have to come up with something for that civ too.

The main reason for the artist changes was the Lithuanian culture UHV.
As some of you pointed out, with civics the whole UHV was pointless.
But as stated in the posts above, Morocco could use some other updates as well, so I'm not against of some bigger changes here as well.

 

[cmakk1012]

One thing that will certainly help Morocco is splitting Tunis from Córdoba—then the Tunisian spawn won’t make the Moroccan cities in Iberia all unstable again.

 

[AbsintheRed]

On the subject at hand: 1, cities are not ocean tiles, thus you can achieve 100% domination on sea, if you define the tiles requiered. Meanwhile trade power points can fit for both civ and the ai can passively give some competition, and thats something you have to work towards! Where colony goal is for major powers and by the time colonies became a thing, venice and genoa were not a nation state.

Technically it can be solved that naval units in cities do not count, sure.
But wouldn't that lead to confusion? Wouldn't that be strange?
All ships in the Mediterranean! Apart from the ones in cities of course!

I'm thinking about trade power points, but atm not sold on the idea.

Could potentially be improved by making it total naval power, rather than just number of ships, so there is an incentive to rush to Galleases and build the Grand Arsenal?

Yeah, if it will be this direction, will probably count naval power, not only number of ships.

Having a certain number of ships would be a good idea, its historical and forces economic development to support such a large navy. There should also be a requirement to have a larger navy than the Ottomans as part of it though, that would add another dynamic if the Ottomans are powerful.

With a high enough percentage it will be included by default to have a larger navy than the Ottomans.

For a third UHV, something relating to the Spice trade would be appropriate. It was the loss of their monopoly due to new routes around africa that began their decline, and that of the Ottomans. Im not sure just "building a colony first" really fits.

Acquire a certain number of luxury resources by 1700AD could work for that one. It would force them to create an extensive trade network as IRL, and look to build good relations with other civs to access resources like gold, furs, cotton, incense etc which aren't in areas they can easily settle. Also means they can trade for colonial resources rather than having to buy them.

Although that type of UHV can be a bit hit and miss in the late game, if the AI civs aren't large enough to possess sufficient tradeable resources (e.g. Moscow and Novgorod have no spare fur to trade, Arabs / Egypt have no incense etc)

While I like the direction with this, I'm no fan of resource UHVs.
There were some attempts (e.g. Genoa had a resource UHV), but they didn't really work out because of the way the resource trade mechanics work.

 

[AbsintheRed]

I met a bug today, Spain was able to purge the "La Mezquita" from Toledo by rel.prosec.
and this time i have 2 save game for it.

Thanks, but actually it's not a bug.
It's possible to persecute in these cases too, but the chance is much reduced with each wonder tied to the given religion.