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Development pre 1.6

Discussion in 'Rhye's and Fall: Europe' started by gilgames, Dec 12, 2018.

  1. caphyre

    caphyre Chieftain

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    First I started updating other civs' city names in Russia, but it lead to...
    ...reviewing almost ALL eastern part of the map, and even more.
    It appeared that these territories had the same issues as Russian city names and city placement.

    Which regions have been reworked:
    Scandinavia: new cities in Jutland, Scania, and the north of the peninsula itself, north is completely reworked;
    The Netherlands: some cities rearranged, new cities added;
    Germany: some cities rearranged;
    Occitania: many cities rearranged, some new cities;
    Poland, Russia, Hungary and Transylvania, Maghreb: some new cities;
    Baltics: some cities rearranged, some new cities;
    Balkans, Anatolia, Levant, Egypt, Cyrenaica, Tripolitania: fully reworked.
    Most Mediterranean islands now have 1 city per tile: Civita, Corfu, Palermo, Palma de Mallorca, and Syracuse are the only ones which occupy 2 tiles.

    Which civs have been reworked:
    Arabic civs: more correct transliteration in some places, filled empty settleable tiles of Maghreb with new cities;
    Bulgaria: expanded names list a little bit northward and southward, up to Morea;
    Byzantium: Latin language replaced with Greek, now the territory of former Western Roman Empire is less covered;
    French civs: added diacritical marks;
    German civs: expanded to Scandinavia, Balkans (without Morea), west and especially northwest of Russia;
    Hungary: expanded to the all Balkans (except Morea) and some northwestern and northeastern territories;
    Iberian civs: corrected some city names, added diacritical marks to Portugal and Spain;
    Italian civs: corrected some city names (especially for Genoa), corrected and expanded colonies in the coast of the Black Sea;
    Lithuania: expanded to all Poland and nearly half of Russia, added diacritical marks;
    The Netherlands: expanded to surrounding territories, removed names in the Near East;
    Poland: corrected some city names, expanded a little to west and southwest, also nearly half of Russia covered now;
    Russian civs: expanded westward and southward up to Balkans, Italy, Germany, and Scandinavia;
    Scandinavian civs: corrected some city names, added diacritical marks;
    Scotland: just made up to date with all changes;
    Turkey: this is what has triggered all the work. Corrected all city names on the northern coast of the Black Sea. Many other names were corrected too. Expanded to territories up to Vienna, but Transylvania is covered only partially.

    Also now lists are synchronized with each other, with almost no overlaps. But, as an example: Galich, which occupies 3 tiles for Kiev/Novgorod. 2 of them are Stanislawow for some later civs, because these cities are pretty close to each other, but Stanisławów (modern Ivano-Frankovsk) has been founded only in the 17th century by Poles. The same situation is with nearby Bender and Tiraspol, and some other cities in Scandinavia, Anatolia and Northern Syria.

    The file with all changes is attached.

    But there are some issues.

    Two civs need to change their spawn tile a little bit. They are Arabia and the Netherlands (1st and 4th screenshots).
    Damascus occupies tiles selected with orange. That iron tile seems like the most accurate place for Damascus.
    The Netherlands currently spawn at Utrecht, Amsterdam occupies only one tile, selected with orange.
    Also I think it wouldn't be too much to add one land tile to northeast of Amsterdam. Maybe moving the iron source somewhere southward will be required.
    Oh, also almost forgot to say that pre-placed Sinop is on the wrong tile too, it should be one tile eastern.

    More about Arabia.

    There are some areas that are too fertile. They are not selected with green on 1-3 screenshots and marked as "DESERT" for Arabia/Cordoba/Morocco.
    I think there is also required rearrangement of resources and oases. Also I have marked two tiles as "LAKE" (Chott el Jerid).
    Cyrene should be focused to be razed, because I couldn't find any significant city on that tile relevant for Middle Ages, no any information about Sidi Rafaa, even the name in Arabic for more correct transliteration. Need a focus for AI to found 2-3 cities in that area instead (Ajdabiya, Derna, Benghazi/Al-Marj).
    Screenshot_1.png Screenshot_2.png Screenshot_3.png Screenshot_4.png
     

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    cmakk1012 likes this.
  2. caphyre

    caphyre Chieftain

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    Forgot to write about Lithuania. I have read more about them and I think it would be reasonable to replace Lithuanian language with Ruthenian (I will do it next time), since they already have Slavic unit sounds (would be better to use Russian instead of Polish though).

    Also I would like to correct some dynamic civ names, but it's not always clear which civs correspond with which numbers.

    P.S. I think provinces should be redrawed after all. In case of Kievan Rus even more: some core/stable provinces cover territories which were always controlled by nomads until the colonization in 17-19 centuries.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
  3. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    Dude, i tried your map, and i love it! So much better, and i found only 1 issue: Moskva is still in Murom and not in Moskva province, but i guess only absinthe can make it happen. So thumbs up for you!
     
  4. caphyre

    caphyre Chieftain

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    I have tried to play as Austria for a first time and somewhat agree with gilgames.
    The only hard thing was to survive the war with Germany, I have wasted most of my initial army to conquer Augsburg and they didn't want to stop the war without taking it back as a contribution (trying to conquer Prague). Possibly it is more than enough just to defend but in this case there will be no access to sulphur.
    After that everything is pretty easy. I had no 100% research after gunpowder (70-80%) but it is still enough to be one of the most advanced civs, no problem with gold indeed.
    Every UHV is too easy. This is the main thing that may be done more difficult I guess.
    But I don't say nerf them completely, just for human player only. AI Austria is still one of the most pathetic civs ever.

    And... why Austria is called Habsburg Empire from the start? There is Archduchy of Austria in Dynamic civ names, but it seems not being used at all.
     
  5. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    I dont think that AI austria is weak. Sometimes they are surrounded by strong neighbours, but thats ok. And if not they become a scourge that you cant ignore.
     
  6. caphyre

    caphyre Chieftain

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    I literally never saw them not being vassalized or destroyed except one time when they were on somewhere of the middle of the score list.
     
  7. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Chieftain

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    Hey everyone, I'm back! Well, starting to get back.
    Had a couple busy months, without any time for RFCE.

    In retrospect, I should have released 1.6 in the end of december, like I originally planned.
    Even if not everything was perfectly balanced, would have been much better.
    Knew I will have much less modding time for a while (altough I didn't think it will be zero).

    Anyway, I'm getting through the forum right now, thanks for everyone's help and feedback!
    I want to release 1.6, finally. But since I already waited through the busy-period, I will finish/round up a couple things first.
    So expect a couple smaller updates, mainly about balancing and some other stuff I already started working on back in december.

    Do not want this to take too long, I want to start working on 1.7 ASAP.
     
  8. SanJose

    SanJose Chieftain

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    cmakk1012, caphyre and PinkPallin like this.
  9. AtlantaMarty

    AtlantaMarty No longer active

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    Will 1.6 have more turns? IMHO, it's badly needed for civs like Norway, to accumulate Viking points in time.

    I would suggest
    500-800: 3 years/turn (100 turns)
    800-1700: 2 years/turn (450 turns)
    1700-1800 1 year/turn (100 turns)

    For a total of 650

    I also like the added techs/buildings/unites proposed in some other thread to flesh out the extra turns
     
  10. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    Well that was months ago...
     
  11. AtlantaMarty

    AtlantaMarty No longer active

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    I don't think this is a good idea. Just because there are no Lithuanian unit sounds and we have to use Slavic unit sounds in their place doesn't mean we should get rid of Lithuanian city names for the Lithuanian civ.
     
  12. caphyre

    caphyre Chieftain

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    I think it would be historically correct to leave Lithuanian names in Lithuanian core territories and to replace in other places, not necessarily with Ruthenian only: Polish on the west.
     
  13. BigSchwartzzz

    BigSchwartzzz Chieftain

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    I played this mod years ago and just got Civ IV again and immediately downloaded RFCE. I love it. But I just came across a bug. I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before or if this is the best place to put it. I'm playing England and was just selected for the Crusade and chose Jerusalem and afterwards I got a notification that the new Crusade was about to begin. A few turns later the army spawned on the Eastern edge of Paris. My last save is a turn or two before this happens so if you need the save file I have it. I just don't know how to post it.
     
  14. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    in the reply you can attach the file. it will be helpful. Once our dev checks the forum he will look into it.
    Sounds strange anyhow. do you have the svn, or the latest fix version?:
     
  15. BigSchwartzzz

    BigSchwartzzz Chieftain

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    To be honest, I'm not exactly sure what that means. I downloaded that app a few days ago through the SVN.

    Also, irrelevant to this mod, I'm also playing RevDCM. Do you by any chance know why a turn could be stuck in limbo, meaning once I tried going to the next turn it just stayed loading? Is that necessarily a bug from that specific mod?
     

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  16. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    Are you still alive?
     
  17. BigSchwartzzz

    BigSchwartzzz Chieftain

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    I'm hanging on for now, what's up?
     
  18. Geocub

    Geocub Chieftain

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    Forgive me if I'm late to the party. I remember Absinthe mentioning that some province adjustments were due for the RFCE map. I wanted to present my ideas for you guys to consider, so I worked on drawing province shapes with civ borders, spent a couple nights reviewing historic maps (thanks Wikipedia et al!), and then made some meh screenshots so you can see. I tried my best not to be arbitrary with my adjustments, however I did have an aesthetic in mind so the provinces wouldn't appear "weird". Of course, it's not my call whether any of these changes get implemented but that's why we have discussions on what direction to go with these things.

    Also I apologize, I don't know how to embed these images into my posts. I'm working with a 3G tether from my smartphone and it's too slow/frustrating for me to upload these and arrange them, so I'll try my best to reference them appropriately. Gonna work mostly West to East here.

    Southern Iberia
    Nothing too nitpicky here. I wanted to try to introduce Extremadura as a new Iberian province. I don't feel strongly about it. My personal opinion is that Andalusia is rather large compared to the surrounding provinces. At the last minute I snuck in the Algarve province to represent the expansion of the Moors into southern Portugal. I feel slightly stronger about that inclusion but no big deal.

    Northern Iberia
    Here I suggest a few extra tweaks. I once made a case for an Asturian province to improve the regional flavor of Northern Spain. Now you guys can see what my idea looked like. It takes a small piece of Galicia, which to me seems a bit larger in this map than in real life, and of course the coastal sections of Leon and Castile. I'm really in love with the idea of including this province, but it's still just a suggestion at the end of the day. Further abroad at the foot of the Pyrenees I made a few more nitpicky adjustments. Navarre is unchanged, but the two easternmost tiles of Aragon, the mountain and Andorra, have been given to France and Catalonia, respectively. From what I could tell, this more accurately reflects the border between France and Iberia. Also, Andorra is culturally/linguistically in Catalonia rather than Aragon. My final change is returning the tile of Perpignan to Catalonia, as in the timeframe of RFCE, this better reflects the situation (was not ceded to France until the Treaty of the Pyrenees in 1659).

    France
    This picture shows most of France except the northernmost portions. The first thing I want to address is Aquitaine. It's kinda the Andalusia of France. Big. Covering a large, shifting cultural area. But still not necessarily something that needed to be changed... yet here I am. I wanted a Gascony province roughly comparable to the English held territory around the Hundred Years War. And then the Poitiers province isn't the best thought out, but it's what I got out of the leftovers. I spent more time studying the area to the east. I felt that a Languedoc province split off from Provence better represents the situation there. But the part that I really thought hard on and is actually my favorite suggested change so far is the enlargement I've made of Burgundy. I used this map and this map as inspiration for the change in the province's shape, and used the rough location of city tiles to define the extent of its borders.

    Italy
    I enlarged Lombardy at the expense of Liguria, and it seems a bit more realistic to me. There's been some discussion of placing some form of Lombardian civilization and this opens up a bit more room for them, mostly just in aesthetic appearance rather than practicality, not that another northern Italian civilization is gonna make it in... is it? :mischief: Also exchanged a tile from Verona to Tuscany. I'm grasping at straws here to give a researched reasoning why other than it just seems to correspond better to maps; and, as with the case of Lombardy and Liguria, a city probably isn't going to be settled there anyway so mechanically it doesn't make any difference really. However, I have put yet another knife in the backs of the Venetians. From my somewhat researched opinion, I figure the Görz city tile is better off in the hands of the Carinthia province, as it was an Austrian port. I also put the Trieste tile in the Dalmatia province, as I feel it is a better ethno-geographic representation of that place for the time period of the game. Again, not super committed to the changes here, but just wanted to offer some alternatives.

    Upper Germany
    Where to start?? Germany broadly got the biggest axe chopping it up. Shaping up the domains of the various Holy Roman princes is a thankless task and streamlining them together another challenge. We don't need this area being too fractured but the province divisions could better represent the internal political situation of the HRE. The first addition I'd like to point out is a homeland for the Swiss people, the province of Rhaetia. Helvetica or related terms are also worth considering. The shape of the province, to me, is very satisfying. Just east of that I included the surprisingly large province of Tirol, but it's still, in my opinion, located in a tight spot. The important cities of Southern Germany and Upper Austria, such as Augsburg, Munich, Innsbruck, and Salzburg run close up on each other and make it more often than not a satellite area that it doesn't deserve to be. Barring a few, careful geographical adjustments to the current map, I don't perceive the inclusion of Tirol being particularly desirable. Next we make it to Swabia and Bavaria. Tirol cleaves off a mighty chunk of Bavaria, but this better represents the city placement of the area and properly divides Austria from Germany proper. As a consolation to Bavaria, I gave it a tile from Franconia, as the modern map of the German state of Bavaria shows quite a large province with respect to the other regions. I know the regional boundaries of modern Germany shouldn't be the standard for a Medieval timeline game but I think it provides a reasonable framework for areas that are harder to structure. On that note, Swabia also loses a portion to Tirol, as well as a rather large piece to the newly arranged Lorraine province. Tirol extends all the way to the eastern shore of Lake Konstanz, which is completely swallowed by the old Swabia. And finally, the last change I wanted to discuss here is good ol' Lorraine. To distinguish between modern French and German borders, I moved the province down to Alsace and cut off the Luxembourg and Saarbrucken areas, binding the eastern border to the Rhine. I strongly believe this much better represents the volatility of the area, having been fought over and exchanged between France and Germany multiple times.

    Low Countries and Lower Germany
    Of course, I'm not done butchering the current iteration of Germany. There are yet more adjustments I must advocate for. Much of the old Lorrainian province has been merged with a little bit of Saxony to create a sort of Rhineland-Palatinate sort of province, though it extends northward into Munster. This is one of those provinces that's just meant to fill in the gaps, as it doesn't feel right calling the area "Saxony" or "Lorraine", but it is a significant Germanic cultural area in the bend of the Rhine. The Holland province is unchanged however I would suggest changing the name to something more general. The area it represents is not just Holland but also Frisia, Drenthe, Guelders, part of Brabant, and more. What made me think of this is when I enlarged Flanders. I had been seeing talk lately that Flanders was awkwardly shaped and I mostly agree, but broadly the issue is better settled with expanding it into more or less a "Belgian" province without necessarily calling it Belgium. It's really the Spanish Netherlands or Habsburg Netherlands I feel it's supposed to represent, so I shifted its borders to reflect the bizarre cultural entity of the Southern Netherlands. Southern, Northern; Northern, Southern. You're welcome. Naturally, the enlargement of Flanders necessitates the expense of its neighbors, of which Picardy and Champagne took the blunt of. But, to be fair, I just gave it back the areas it was culturally connected to, such as Cambray and Namur. Also, sorry it can't be seen too well, but I did make a couple adjustments to enlarge Bretagne, and cut back Normandy just a little. The French region overall isn't so problematic as the HRE region. Lastly, I found it sensible to divide Saxony into its Lower and Upper iterations. It suffers a situation not unlike Aquitaine and Andalusia, but somehow looks worse to me. As you'll see when I move onto the next section, it includes a bit more of a rework of Northern Germany.

    Pomerania
    I incorrectly labeled the Holstein province as Lubeck. My bad :blush: It is one tile larger, however. And you'll notice that Brandenburg is gone?? From here on it's a bit more of a work in progress. The Northern and Eastern Germany area underwent some awkward from of expansion throughout the timeline of the mod, that I didn't feel was properly represented, but the reality is that Brandenburg and in particular Berlin are sorry to put it bluntly but essentially irrelevant for the vast majority of this game's timeline, to the best of my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong. Berlin did not become a notable city even after the Hohenzollern family established their rule in the 15th century, and did not grow a significant population until Frederick I took the city for the Kingdom of Prussia. Up until the 11th or 12th century the area of Brandenburg was primarily inhabited by the Slavic Wends. Clearing the current iteration of Brandenburg out of the way makes room for a substantial Upper Saxony which better suits the timeframe of the mod, and facilitates the expansion of a proper Pomeranian province. Stretching from Mecklenburg to Prussia, the elongated Pomeranian province makes a more suitable shape for both the early game as well as still fitting the boundaries of the Prussian kingdom, without excessively dividing provinces. These changes resonated down to Poland where I honestly started to grow tired of the project I put on myself, and I adjusted the old province boundaries without a lot of thought. The changes are there because they're aesthetically preferential to me but by no means carefully considered. I did push the border of Poland up a row and west to the Oder. Whether this is an anachronism, I'm not certain. But I figured it was a fair exchange for the beefed up Pomerania. Also not sure whether consideration should be put into a stable province for G'dansk for Poland or just having Pomerania as a border province is fine.

    Baltic
    IIRC, in RFCE++ we had a Courland province, not much unlike the iteration I made. Now I may have made a mistake in labeling my iteration Courland, and the other Livonia. It may be Livonia (west) and Latgallia (east), instead. It's not important to me for it to be added in, although, this coastal region was quickly colonized by Germans and the Latgallia region took more effort to subjugate, if I remember my readings correctly. In any case, this area was more of a just for fun sort of thing I guess? I saw changes I wanted to make but again I don't feel strongly either way. I thought readjusting the border between Estonia and Novgorod looked a bit nicer, and the addition of the Pskov province would add a bit more regional flavor.

    Conclusion
    I'm proud to have followed this mod for so many years and have enjoyed countless hours of gameplay. I felt inspired to share these suggestions with hope that I can offer some form of improvement, what you will, and continue to hold this mod to the high standard that Absinthe and Merijn and others have held it to. Hopefully this will aid you in your process of redesigning the map, both for the current installment and hopefully what will be the next, larger map :thumbsup:
     

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  19. gilgames

    gilgames Priest-King

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    It was meant for Absinthe! Sorry

    He mentioned something that he wants to split some provinces; like andalusia or aquitane. Bit it was a plan only afaik.
    You made some good call, but in general they are too small. Specially in gemany, many of them cant have 1 city.
     
  20. Geocub

    Geocub Chieftain

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    I agree with you, to a point. The province changes I suggested were intended to visualize different historical boundaries than were previously presented, particularly in the German region which for aforementioned reasons is incredibly difficult to satisfactorily implement. There are some other provinces that also have limited space such that one city or no city will typically be settled, including the current iterations of Flanders (too narrow and gets covered up by cities in Champagne and Northern Netherlands) and Bavaria (Swabian Augsburg takes up much of it, as well as Salzburg; the Tirol province I made is essentially just that satellite area I mentioned and the rest of Bavaria doesn't get much wiggle room or attention anyway either), and there are times Lorraine may be skipped as well. They're not mutually inclusive, either: if you wanted, Bavaria's shape could include the rest of Tirol rather than making Bavaria smaller (giving it the Austrian territory that Swabia contains). The sticking points I really wanted to make were the Alsace and Southern Netherlands provinces. For the Southern Netherlands it would have better historical continuity for the area, and the losses to the surrounding provinces aren't an issue since Picardy will typically only have one city anyway and Champagne could still fit two easily. The new Alsace-Lorraine sets a more contentious border with better historical continuity than the currently implemented Lorraine, which contains city tiles that were not in the duchy of Lorraine (Cologne, Aachen). A more natural adjustment would be to link it southward to Alsace.
     

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