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DG4 Govt: Number of Branches

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Demo Game III: Citizens' started by ravensfire, Oct 21, 2003.

  1. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    In the past, we have had 3 branches of the government: Executive, Legislative and Judicial.

    Please do not discuss the duties of each branch, except in general terms. Those discussions will start as a result of this one. :D

    Do we want to continue with the three branches, or is there an alternative that we should consider?

    This discussion will be open for at least 24 hours. This topic may be polled.

    -- Ravensfire
     
  2. zorven

    zorven 12,000 Suns

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    I have never seen the justification for having a Legislature in DG3 - it seems to have no function. I think we could get rid of it or invest more power into it with respect to how laws and procedures are implemented.
     
  3. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Deity Retired Moderator

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    Let's make the Governors part of the Executive Branch...perhaps there could be two parts of the Executive Branch, the Senate and the Council, with the President heading up the latter. The citizens would still be able to make new laws, vote on polls, etc. but we don't need to make the Citizenry an official Legislative Branch.
     
  4. FionnMcCumhall

    FionnMcCumhall Emperor

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    legislative is for the senate, ie governors are part of the senate, by allowing governors to be part of the executive branch we thus eliminate the senate, unless we are gonna go weird on this. Every democracy has a legislative branch, it provides the proper checks and balances to make democracy work
     
  5. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    I never did like the idea of governors being a Senate. Governors have enough power by setting build queues. If we were to divest governors of the build queue power (and give that to mayors) then I could see the point in having Senators elected from the provinces. If we think the citizens as a whole will not pass needed laws then let's let the Senate do that.

    Overall I do think we need three branches. The executive department to *run things*, the justice department to make sure our rules and laws are followed and the legislative to make the rules and laws. The question is do we want the legislative to be a Senate or all the citizens - or a mix.

    Another thing along these lines is the question of local politics. Should we let the citizens of each city set the city's build queue? Should we allow the citizens of each province to hold their own elections, etc.? Do we want to play a game of Republic instead of a game of Democracy?
     
  6. Donovan Zoi

    Donovan Zoi The Return

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    I like the three branches of government, and I agree with donsig that giving the Governors power of Senate would be too much.

    However, that has never made a difference because in the past, the Senate really hasn't had much of a function. But here are some ways to implement some of the ideas that have been mentioned earlier.

    1. We start the game with three Senators, no matter what.

    2. Mayors are elected by the citizens who have residence in that city. These mayors are responsible for their own build queues.

    3. As a triumvirate, the three senators can vote to override a build queue they deem inappropriate. This will keep the mayors from having too much power.

    4. When enough cities are founded, the Senate will be responsible for divvying up the land into provinces. We may want to include the Domestic Leader in this somehow.

    5. When there is enough land for a fourth province, then a fourth Senator should be added. With mayors handling the build queues, provinces can be smaller and we can have a larger Senate.

    Here's where it gets tricky, but its a start. Sorry, Ravensfire, if I jumped the gun here a bit, but am definitely in favor of keeping the three branches.

    Don't elaborate on my ideas too much until Ravensfire gives the go-ahead. A simple, "sounds interesting" or "this stinks" will suffice. ;)
     
  7. zorven

    zorven 12,000 Suns

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    Sounds interesting. More comments when the time is right....
     
  8. FionnMcCumhall

    FionnMcCumhall Emperor

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    Dont like this idea. takes responsiblity from the domestic leader to actually make the provinces. Insteas the could oversee departments created by the leaders such as Cartographic Office, Military Academy, Ambassador appointments and so forth.
     
  9. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    Actually, I like the flow of DZ's post. It reminds me of FortyJ's proposal. I like having 3 branches of Government also. It gives us those checks and balances, that Fionn spoke of.
     
  10. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    I am in favor of two elected branches (Executive, Judiciary) and having the legislative branch be represented by the full citizenry. A simple majority of the active census should be enough to pass a law, and we should not continue the practice of letting as few as 2 individuals have absolute veto power. (in the current game any 2 judiciary members can dismiss charges, half of the senators can block passage of a law)
     
  11. FionnMcCumhall

    FionnMcCumhall Emperor

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    Dave your going to get that with the judiciary no matter what. Same with the senate. The 2 people represent 2/3 majority. Unless we plan to dismiss 2/3 majority?

    The problem with the full citizenry voting for a law and passage of said law is participation. If we went thru DG4 with the same participation we currently have, then alot of laws would either not pass or pass but such a small majority not reflecting the full citizenry nor the will of the people. Its tough to repeal a law after its passage.

    I seriously hope that those citizens who only have dg3 experience would please read the archived threads on the previous dgs to know how and why certain aspects of the game worked.
     
  12. zorven

    zorven 12,000 Suns

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    I think that would take alot of time that I don't have.
     
  13. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    I understand. That's why I always try to put things in a nutshell when I post in these threads. Problem is, they turn into 2 page posts. :)
     
  14. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    Poll will be posted tonight due to issues at work.
     
  15. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    ANother pool or is that the same poll mentioned in the other thread? I thought there might be something to respond to here but this thread, like the other, is stuck on what defines *the will of the people*. :(
     
  16. Cyc

    Cyc Looking for the door...

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    I think there's no rush in bringing this issue to a poll either. I don't believe 11 posts concerning the topic are enough. Hold off on yer polls, ravensfire. :)
     
  17. DaveShack

    DaveShack Inventor Retired Moderator

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    Well, under my proposed rules (majority of a quorum), a law can just as easily be repealed as it can be passed. It takes the same majority.
     
  18. ravensfire

    ravensfire Member of the Opposition

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    The comment has been made about there aren't enough posts for a poll to be posted. Okay, I'll hold off.

    I'm going to focus the discussion again. The question is, how many branches of the government should we have? Please avoid specific duties, passing laws, etc. Think small steps, not giant leaps!

    To answer another question about just taking the various documents and modifying them - we are at a position where I feel we ought to scrap everything, and examine the reasons behind our discussions. If people prefer to take an existing document and modify it, I very obviously cannot, and will not stop or hinder them. I think it's the wrong approach, and won't solve the problems we are running into.

    Sorry for the tangent, back the topic. So, how many branches should we have?
    1? 2? 3? some other format?

    -- Ravensfire
     
  19. zorven

    zorven 12,000 Suns

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    Basic Answer: 3. I will discuss details when you get to them.
     
  20. FionnMcCumhall

    FionnMcCumhall Emperor

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    Again that couldve been done in the past as well, but after all the work and thought that went into the law in the first place ends up down the drain because some eventually dont like it or cant use it to its advantage. We should keep the 2/3 majority of a quorum and leave it at that.
     

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