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DG4 Ruleset: Our Constitution

Discussion in 'Civ3 - Demo Game III: Citizens' started by Donovan Zoi, Nov 1, 2003.

  1. Donovan Zoi

    Donovan Zoi The Return

    Joined:
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    Location:
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    Please discuss what you would like to see from our Constitution.

    To aid in discussion, I have posted the Constitutions of our last two Democracy Games, so that we determine what, if anything, we need to change for DG4. Resolving our Constitution now will give us the best chance of constructing a decent set of supporting laws.

    DG2 Constitution

    Code:
    The Constitution
    We, the people of Fanatika, in order to create an atmosphere of friendship and 
    cooperation, establish this Constitution of our beloved country. We uphold the beliefs that 
    each citizen must have a voice in the government and ruling of our country, that 
    government itself is a construct of and servant to the people, that rules, regulations, and 
    laws should be established to facilitate the active participation of the people and to make 
    possible the dreams and desires of the Fanatiks.
    
    A.  All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen Registry are citizens of 
    Fanatika. Citizens have the right to assemble, the right to free movement, the right 
    to free speech, the right to a fair trial, the right to representation, the right to 
    demand satisfaction and the right to vote. 
    
    B.  Governing rules shall consist of the Articles of the Constitution, the Code of Laws 
    and the Code of Standards. No laws shall be passed that conflict with an article 
    and no standards shall be used that conflict with a law or an article. 
    
    C.  The government will consist of the Executive Branch, Legislative Branch and 
    Judicial Branch. 
    
    D.  The Executive Branch is headed by the President, who shall be the designated 
    player of the game, and shall include a council of leaders, each of whom heads a 
    department that is responsible for one major facet of the country. These 
    departments are Domestic, Foreign, Military, Science, Culture and Trade. Each of 
    these departments will be generally responsible for the items found under the 
    respective Advisor in the Civilization III game and esoteric aspects that fall under 
    their department name. 
    
    E.   The Legislative Branch will be formed of two houses. The Senate will be formed 
    of the Provincial Governors, each of whom are responsible for the care, 
    management and use of the cities and lands of a province in addition to legislative 
    responsibilities. The Congress will be formed of the entirety of the citizenry. 
    
    F.   The Judicial Branch will be formed of three leaders, one who is tasked with 
    upholding the laws (Judge Advocate), one who is tasked with defending the 
    citizenry (Public Defendant) and headed by the Chief Justice, who will have the 
    power and authority of both lower offices. 
    
    G.  All offices will be filled via election with terms lasting one calendar month. 
    
    H.  No person shall hold multiple positions of leadership (President, Department 
    Leader, Judiciary, Provincial Governor) simultaneously. 
    
    I.    The average of the number of votes cast in each of the most recent contested 
    elections shall constitute an active census of citizens. The highest vote total of 
    these elections shall constitute a full census (the Congress). A majority of the 
    Congress shall be required to amend the Constitution. A 2/3 majority of the Senate 
    shall be required to ratify said amendment. 
    
    J.    Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people. 
    
    K.  Game actions will be played out during a public turn chat. 
    
    L.   The constitution, laws and standards of Fanatika can never be contrary to the rules 
    and regulations of the Civfanatics forums. Moderators may veto any such 
    constitutional amendments, laws or standards. 
     
  2. Donovan Zoi

    Donovan Zoi The Return

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    Location:
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    Code:
    The Constitution(DemoGame 3)
    
    We, the people of Fanatica, in order to create an atmosphere of friendship and 
    cooperation, establish this Constitution of our beloved country. We uphold the 
    beliefs that each citizen must have a voice in the government and ruling of our 
    country, that government itself is a construct of and servant to the people, that 
    rules, regulations, and laws should be established to facilitate the active 
    participation of the people and to make possible the dreams and desires of the 
    citizens.
    
    A. Governing rules shall consist of these Articles of the Constitution, such 
       amendments that shall follow and lower forms of law that may be 
       implemented. No rule shall be valid that contradicts these Articles 
       excepting an amendment specifically tasked to do so.
    
    B. All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen Registry are 
       citizens of Fanatica. Citizens have the right to assemble, the right to 
       free movement, the right to free speech, the right to a fair trial, the right to 
       representation, the right to demand satisfaction and the right to vote.
    
       1. Political parties are not permitted.
    
    C. The government will consist of the Executive Branch, Legislative Branch 
       and Judicial Branch.
    
       1. The Executive Branch is headed by the President, the overall 
          Leader of the land, and shall include a Council of Leaders, each of 
          whom heads a department that is responsible for one major facet of 
          the country. Each of these Leaders will be generally responsible for 
          the items found under the respective Advisor in the Civilization III 
          game and esoteric aspects that fall under their department name.
    
             a. The President shall be the designated player of the game. 
                The President is responsible for following the legal 
                instructions of all Leaders during play of the game.
    
       2. The Legislative Branch will be formed of two houses, the Senate 
          and the Congress.
    
          a. The Senate will be formed of the Provincial Governors, each 
             of whom are a Leader responsible for the care, management 
            and use of the cities and lands of a province.
    
          b. The Congress will be formed of the entirety of the citizenry. 
             Congress shall have the primary duty of creating laws.
    
       3. The Judicial Branch will be formed of three Leaders and is tasked 
          with verifying legality of legislation, interpreting rules, and 
          determining when violations occur. Each also has a specific 
          area of additional responsibility.
    
          a. The Chief Justice is the overall head of the Judiciary and can 
             fill in for either lower position. The Chief Justice is 
             responsible for maintaining the legal books of the country 
             and the mechanics of Judicial Procedure.
    
          b. The Judge Advocate functions in a role of prosecution and 
             attorney to the state when allegations of rulebreaking have 
             been made.
    
          c. The Public Defendant functions in the roll of defense for any 
             and all accused citizens.
    
    D. All offices will be filled via elections to serve fixed terms.
    
    E. No person shall hold multiple Leader positions simultaneously.
    
    F. The average of the number of votes cast in each of the most recent 
       contested elections shall constitute an active census of citizens. The 
       highest vote total of these elections shall constitute a full census (the 
       Congress). A majority of the Congress shall be required to amend the 
       Constitution. A 2/3 majority of the Senate shall be required to ratify said 
       amendment.
    
    G. Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people.
    
    H. Any game actions taken by the DP must be documented in a game play 
       log (examples: Notes or chat log). The game play log must be made 
       publicly available in a timely manner.
    
       1. Commission of any game action that is not instantly reversible by 
          any person other than the President while carrying out his/her 
          duties is strictly forbidden.
    
          a. Exception: Determining options in the renegotiation of Peace
    	 agreements requires an action of acceptance or war to exit the
    	 bargain screen. This may be done but the game must be immediately
    	 closed without saving.
    
    I. The constitution, laws and standards of Fanatica can never be contrary 
       to the rules and regulations of the Civfanatics forums. Moderators may 
       veto/correct any such items.
     
  3. zorven

    zorven 12,000 Suns

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    I will start with a question for DZ - you said the DG3 version is stronger yet flawed. How is it flawed?
     
  4. Sarevok

    Sarevok Civ3 Scenario Creator

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  5. Noldodan

    Noldodan 2 years of waiting...

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    But you weren't here for Term 3. The horror... the horror! If you want to know why it was so... horrible, check out the archives. Speaking of the archives... *toddles off to dig up something in the archives*
     
  6. Donovan Zoi

    Donovan Zoi The Return

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    zorven, here is the only issue I have with the DG3 Constitution:

    D. All offices will be filled via elections to serve fixed terms.

    In reviewing Article D, our judiciary had determined that all deputy positions need to be filled by election in the event that said deputy would need to take over for a leader who had resigned. Also, Article D has been interpreted so that the third-place vote-getter in an election could become deputy with no confirmation necessary.

    Perhaps this article could stay intact if we altered it slightly and drafted the proper supporting laws.
     
  7. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Deity Retired Moderator

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    Location:
    Mid-Illinois
    I have a proposal for a new constitution. It combines the DG2 and DG3 rulesets and also includes a few things that we have discussed, such as eliminating the Senate and moving the Governors over to the Executive Branch. I have left out the procedures for game play sessions as I think those should be determined in the CoL or CoP. I also reworded the famous Article D from the DG3 constitution to be a bit more flexible. Here is the proposal, please discuss:
    Code:
    We, the people of (insert nation name here), in order to create an atmosphere 
    of friendship and cooperation, establish this Constitution of our beloved country.
    We uphold the beliefs that each citizen must have a voice in the government and 
    ruling of our country, that government itself is a construct of and servant to 
    the people, that rules, regulations, and laws should be established to facilitate
    the active participation of the people and to make possible the dreams and desires
    of the citizens.
    
    A.  Governing rules shall consist of the Articles of the Constitution, the Code of Laws 
    and the Code of Procedures. No laws shall be passed that conflict with an article 
    and no procedures shall be used that conflict with a law or an article. 
    
    B. All Civfanatics Forum users who register in the Citizen Registry are 
       citizens of (insert nation name here). Citizens have the right to assemble, the 
       right to free movement, the right to free speech, the right to a fair trial, the 
       right to representation, the right to demand satisfaction and the right to vote.
    
       1. Political parties are not permitted.
    
    C. The government will consist of the Executive Branch, Legislative Branch 
       and Judicial Branch.
    
       1. The Executive Branch is headed by the President, the overall 
          Leader of the land, and shall include a Council of Leaders, each of 
          whom heads a department that is responsible for one major facet of 
          the country. Each of these Leaders will be generally responsible for 
          the items found under the respective Advisor in the Civilization III 
          game and esoteric aspects that fall under their department name.  The
          Executive Branch shall also include the Provincial Governors, each of
          whom are a Leader responsible for the care, management and use of the 
          cities and lands of a province.
    
       2. The Legislative Branch shall consist of the Congress.  The Congress consists
          of the entirety of the citizenry, and has the primary duty of creating laws.
    
       3. The Judicial Branch will be formed of three leaders, one who is tasked with 
          upholding the laws (Judge Advocate), one who is tasked with defending the 
          citizenry (Public Defender) and headed by the Chief Justice, who will have the 
          power and authority of both lower offices.  The Judiciary is also tasked with 
          verifying legality of legislation, interpreting rules, and determining when 
          violations occur.
    
    D. No person shall hold multiple Leader positions (President, Department Leader, 
       Judiciary, or Provincial Governor) simultaneously. 
    
    E. Elections shall be held regularly to fill Leader positions in the Executive and
       Judicial branches.
    
    F. The average of the number of votes cast in each of the most recent 
       contested elections shall constitute an active census of citizens. The 
       highest vote total of these elections shall constitute a full census (the 
       Congress). A majority of the Congress shall be required to amend the 
       Constitution.
    
    G. Elected officials must plan and act according to the will of the people as defined
    by discussions and polls.
    
    H. Commission of any game action that is not instantly reversible by any person other 
    than the Designated Player while carrying out his/her duties is strictly forbidden.
    
       1. Exception: Determining options in the renegotiation of Peace
       agreements requires an action of acceptance or war to exit the 
       bargain screen. This may be done but the game must be immediately
       closed without saving.
    
    I. The constitution, laws and standards of Fanatica can never be contrary 
       to the rules and regulations of the Civfanatics forums. Moderators may 
       veto/correct any such items.
     
  8. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    As one of the justices who made that interpetation I'd like make a point or two. I stand by the idea that deputies should be elected since they may well have to step in and either become the leader or temporarily act with the full powers of the leader.

    The second interpretation was one I was never comfortable with but it served well as a stop gap measure at the time. Unfortunately the citizens never acted to pass any kind of law to change things! It would have been entirely possible to pass a law instituting a system wherein we elected a slate of candidates, i.e., a leader, dupty and chat rep all at once. Citizens A, B and C could have run (in one election) against D, E and F where it was stated up front who would be the leader the deputy and the rep. That would have fulfilled the requirement that officials be elected and would have made the second interpretation moot. It also would allow the leader to pick his or her deputy and chat rep. I guess it smacked too much of a political party to try it. But don't blame the constitution for being flawed when the citizens do not want to step up and make laws!

    BTW, lets use the DG3 constitution but make a change or two. We can start by getting rid of the no party clause!
     
  9. donsig

    donsig Low level intermediary

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    We are also putting the cart before the horse as Bootstoots post shows. We cannot draft a constitution until we decide how we are going to structure the government! What is the fate of the senate and culture leader? Who will do build quees - governors or mayors? We need to decide things like this before working on the wording of the constitution!
     
  10. FionnMcCumhall

    FionnMcCumhall Emperor

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    we should keep both the senate and culture leader. We just need to define the jobs of the leaders and the role of the senate and if no one does their job we act upon it. Thats all we can do, getting rid of an office because its been ineffective the past games is kinda crazy. Lets give Culture another shot for this game and if it doesnt work out for 3 terms we abolish the position, but right now i feel we are taking away positions for potential players. An idea i had for the senate is the governors are not Senators but yet each province elects a senator to represent their province in theiry this idea wont work untl we have 3 provinces and maybe could be looked at later
     
  11. FionnMcCumhall

    FionnMcCumhall Emperor

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    lets not get rid of the party clause, we do not need that headache right now
     
  12. Bootstoots

    Bootstoots Deity Retired Moderator

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    What I posted is only a very rough draft, once we make those decisions it can be edited as necessary. It isn't like I'm going to poll it in 24 hours or anything. And I'm only doing this to give us an idea of what it might look like and speed the process of writing our consitution along; the CoL and CoP (or CoS) will probably take much longer.
     
  13. zorven

    zorven 12,000 Suns

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    donsig - I think that is what this thread is for, to discuss the structure of the government by defining the elements of the constitution.

    I agree with Fionn that we should keep the current slate of leaders, but we need to define their roles and responsibilities such that each leader has an opportunity to be active in the game. However, I don't see the value of a Senate with respect to the Legislature, especially since the consensus is we want to setup our rules such that there is little or no need to draft and pass legislation.
     
  14. Donovan Zoi

    Donovan Zoi The Return

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    I started this thread so that we may begin discussng what kind of Constitution we want, even if we don't poll this topic right away. Ideas that arise here can provide the basis for which topics need to be discussed next.

    I agree that the wording of the Constitution isn't that important right now, so let's just debate for now which ideas should remain and which ideas should be removed.

    So far we have two points of contention with the DG3 Constitution -- Article D and Article B.1. -- as well as an alternate proposal presented by Bootstoots. Let's discuss this further.

    I will be opening a new thread on political parties shortly.
     
  15. Sarevok

    Sarevok Civ3 Scenario Creator

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    I heard that political parties caused a bit of a mess. I think boots' constitution is a pretty good one.
     
  16. Zarn

    Zarn Le Républicain Catholique

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    Yeah, I experienced term 3 very horribly, myself...
     
  17. Sarevok

    Sarevok Civ3 Scenario Creator

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  18. Noldodan

    Noldodan 2 years of waiting...

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    Look back in the citizens forum and the Term 3 Judiciary thread.
     
  19. zorven

    zorven 12,000 Suns

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    Section D options:

    1) change it to read: All offices defined in section C....
    2) Define in section C the only offices that are within the government. that is, define whether or not there are deputies.
    3) if deputies are defined, specify if / how deputy positions are filled and what happens in the case of vacancies.
     
  20. FionnMcCumhall

    FionnMcCumhall Emperor

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    Deputies should never be elected only leaders, runners up in elections are the deputies enough said. We have a hard enough time filling the positions we have when we get close to the end of a game/middle of a game.

    DZ we really dont need another discussion on political parties. They shouldnt be allowed ever in this game. It instills too much of a problem in my opinion. Im sure you and eyrei dont need that headache, because i can guarentee a flareup by someone unhappy with the voting process during any election that someone loses. There will be accusations of vote fixing and anything else someone can come up with.

    Instead of parties why not try lobbyist's
     

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