DG6: Alternative Government Structure

[Provolution]

I am all for parting strategy and implementation as before, but we can still call it ministers and directors. 4 Planners and 6 Implementers can be a workable middleground solution.
Changing Minister of Finance to be a Director of Finance is one. I still see a need for two financial implementers, one for budgeting purposes and one for the controller function.

 

[Nobody]

i like most of these ideas, except combining of Trade and Foreign. I think its to much to do

 

[Black_Hole]

Currently I am liking DaveShacks proposal best(out of DS, RF, and Provo)
But here are things that need to be fixed:

DaveShack
Strategic Council:
-- President
-- Consul for Domestic Policy
-- Consul for External Policy
-- Consul for Cultural Policy
-- Consul for Resource and Technologies Policy

Tactical Directors:
-- Commander of the Armed Forces
-- Director of Commerce (trade, rushes, sliders)Include micromanagement of tech queue
-- Director of Infrastructure (worker actions)
-- Governors & Mayors (build queues, worker action requests, rush requests)
-- Director of Expansion (settlers & escorts – job goes away when no more land)
-- Director of Foreign Affairs and Trade ; there is still no one in charge of microing trades and foreign afffairs, and there needs to be

Administrative Offices:
-- Election Office (non-elected)
-- Naming Office (non-elected)
-- Information Office (non-elected)
-- Judiciary (3 offices)
All above: Make elected, but allow people to have 1 administrative, and 1 other position...Will go in detail a bit farther down

Suggested Changes in italics

Now onto Administrative and DP offices... Here is my idea:
You can hold 2 offices, 1 from each category below:

[pre]Category 1 Category 2
All Strategic Offices All Administrative Offices
All Tactical Offices DP Position
[/pre]

This means someone should be able to be in a strategic office or tactical office AND administrative office or 1 of # Dp positions

 

[Strider]

There is something really deeply seated here which some of us obviously don't get intuitively. I can think of four driving forces behind not wanting to have this type of change.

1. Some office will have more power than it already has
2. Some office will have less power than it already has
3. Something about the play of non office holders will change
4. You're generally worried about change itself

General "don't change anything" type statements won't help make it easier to find something which revitalizes the game while addressing your concerns. Is it long term planning? The idea of having per turnchat instructions which aren't polled? Having a hierarchical leadership structure where implementors have to follow the plans made by planners, albeit with the ability to use personal initiative to decide how to implement them? Multiple DPs elected separately from the office holders?

Whoa... that one was De Ja Vu, I could have sworn I answered this one already:

Also, may I try to clarify something? I am in no way close minded to a new concept, as long as it continues to stay with the old layout. It is a changing of the layout I am against, for reasons I have said already.

Alittle bit more on this topic, I do not think that it is the basic layout of our constitution that is the problem, it is several of the concepts that we are using within it. This layout has worked for 5 demogames, with no problems at all, the problems have always been with the concepts.

Remember the objective, more long-term planning and coordination, less micro polling of individual decisions without a clear guiding force. I will support every proposed change which supports this goal, with a preference for the minimum such change. If you can propose a minor change to the traditional system which will achieve this objective then please do, with my blessing.

I was the first person in this demogame to push for more long term planning, and when I took control of the science department that is what you saw in all of my queues. Save your preaching, I agree that more long term planning is good, but no matter what, I still think that the current system is better.

It will be easy enough to propose a change to the traditional system to encourage long-term planning. Several fairly simple ways I can think of immediantly:

1) Make leaders incharge of the general long-term planning and put the deputies incharge of the day-to-day affairs of the department, or possibly switch it around (Don't think I'd like this to much).
2) The President could start posting more discussion on long-term affairs, or any citizen for that matter, very easy fix. (One which I prefer)
3) Make another small office under the president that is incharge of the above, possibly even make that the VP's job.

Those three were just things that I came up with in 5 minutes, I'm sure if I brood over it during supper I could give you alot more. Does it matter that I proposed them? Not really, for one there in the wrong thread, and for two, I doubt anyone will listen to anything outside of this thread right now. Which is why I'm currently posting here, to attempt to get discussion on the old ruleset going again.

 

[Strider]

Ravensfire, DaveShack and Provolutions' proposals do not simply merge departments though. If you look at the number of offices contained in each, only Ravensfire proposes a reduction - through abolition of the presidency rather than increased concentration of departmental responsibility - while the others actually advocate an increase which should surely result in the work being spread more thinly than at present.
What is being put forward here is a system that redistributes the workload so that one individual does not have to put forward strategies, argue them in the fora and also micromanage their implementation. That to me seems a greater workload than having one person formulating and debatiing strategy and a second person working on putting it into practice.

Fails to go down into detail though. Not much else to say, it's mainly the basic, I've actually been waiting for more details and fine tuning. The only person who seems to have gone into any type of detail is Ravensfire.

Combining micromanagement of trade with that of foreign affairs simply removes the duplication of effort and lack of coordination which is built in to the current system. Trading of maps, tech, luxuries and resources not only provides material gain but affects the attitude of foreign powers and, that being the case, a good foreign affairs or trade department would have to look at a lot of things theoretically within the remit of the other in order to provide the best recommended course of action. As long as the office responsible for trade & foreign affairs micromanagement does not also have to look after long term planning and the debate of such things on the fora I would say the result is a net reduction in workload.

Most of our trade ministers just click on a tech and then ask another civ what the want for it. They don't even do the job that good right now, and frankly I don't really blame them for it. Searching for trades is long and boring, and you want to make there job even longer and more boring? Your doing nothing more, but inviting our leaders to be even more lazy.

No, changing something every time it doesn't work is not how you solve it, espicially when the idea is fairly solid. Sometimes it's just the people.

 

[GenMarshall]

The more I keep hearing about this Alternate Government Structure, the more it will push me away.

 

[Black_Hole]

Time to go into detail, about my ideas with DaveShack's plan(hope you don't mind DS)

We first go into the Consuls:

President
Consul for Domestic Policy
Consul for External Policy
Consul for Culture Policy
Consul for Resources and Technologies Policy

President - In charge of strategic discussion, may call consul votes to make decisions for an absent advisor
Consul for Domestic Policy - Decides on things such as:
Settling style(loose, tight, etc); priority cities for worker actions; heavy spending or saving up gold?
Consul for External Policy - Decides on things such as:
Who to attack? Who should be our trading partners? Continental Takeover or diplomatic buildup? When should we take our continent? Pushes for military techs
Consul for Culture Policy - Decides on things such as:
Rush lots of culture? Build lots of wonders or not? Pushes for techs that come with a culture improvement
Consul for Resources and Technologies Policy - Decides on things such as:
Which path of tech tree to go along? Trade luxes back and forth, or hog them?

Consul Votes:
3/4(1 member absent) votes required to decide things for absent consul
4/5 Needed to overridea consul(if consul is not making decision based on WOTP)

Tactical Advisors:

Commander of the Armed Forces
Director of Commerce
Director of Infrastructure
Governors & Mayors
Director of Expansion
Director of Foreign Affairs and Trade

Commander of the Armed Forces - Micromanages military, suggests governors to build specific units... All within guidelines set by External Consul(i.e. no creating large army when a small one is decided upon)
Director of Commerce - Approves/denies requests by governors for rushs(when not in despotism or communism),... withing guidelines of domestic consul, decides on lux/science sliders...within guidelines of domestic consul, micromanages science... within guidelines of technology and resources consul
Director of Infrastructure - Determines worker actions and reviews requests from governors... within guidelines of domestic consul
Governors & Mayors - Set tiles and queues in cities
Director of Expansion - Determines settler locations and movement of transports carrying settlers... within guidelines of domestic consul
Director of Foreign Affairs and Trade - Determines exact trades to do... within guidelines of resources/techonologies consul and external consul

Now all tactical offices must fit their guidelines into guidelines set by consuls...
Now you might think this is unfair towards tactical offices but it isnt becuase strategic offices are subject to the always changing WOTP for their every decison, but the tactical offices are subject to the consuls guidelines, but there are many creative ways this can be done in any circumstance.

The good part is the consuls can work on polling letting the tactical advisors just decide best how to micromanage their departments without needing to also wait for pollis to end etc.

Now there will be 3 DPs which are elected seperatly of tactical and strategic offices, but can be in both.
And as I said above you can be in 2 positions each term by choosing from below:
1. Job 1 - Tactical or Strategic Position
2. Job 2 - DP or Administrative Position
This means you cant be a tactical and strategic position.
You also cant be a DP and administrative position.

This allows people to choose the best combo for their activitiy levels, skills, and likings.

 

[Ashburnham]

Currently, I like Provo's plan the best. However, I think it could use some fine-tuning, which is what I plan to do now.

President (Designated Player as well as person in charge of coordinating ministries)
Premier Minister (Protocol Office, named cities and units, naming of provinces, provincial borders, Mobilization and War Economy decisions, Drafts, arbitrates Governor and Mayor quarrels on borders)

I don't see why we need two officials here. The Prime Minister could just as well be the DP. Also, what exactly does "Protocol Office" mean? Don't Ministries create their own protocol? There should also be something in the PM's description that mandates that he provides clear summaries of every play session. I would have it as so:

Prime Minister: In charge of coordinating and mediating between conflicting Ministries. In charge of all Mobilization and War Economy decisions, Drafts. Head of City Naming Office and Province Naming Office. Provides summary of every play session.

Minister of Works (Roads, Mining and Agriculture, all non-city tiles to be worked)
Minister of Finance (Tech, lux tax sliders, taxmen, All fiscal policies related to sliders and rushes, setting up rules for all gold related activities for one term to be discussed and polled, responsible for Capital location and Forbidden Capital location)
Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade (Everything negotiated in the Diplo-screen)
Minister of Science and Culture (Science programs, approve all tech trades, All Major Wonder builds, Space Race)
Minister of Military (All military land units, except escorts, plus navy in wartime, long term strategic planning, force composition, upgrade plans, military groupings, War Strategy Objectives, All Military Wonder builds)

To slim down the number of Ministries (which I happen to think is a good idea), I would break up the Minister of Science and Culture and integrate it into the Finance and Works Ministries. Finance would get Science (since they set the Sliders anyway, might as well have complete control over research) and Works would get Culture. Though I suppose we would then have to change their names to "Minstry of Finance and Research" and "Ministry of the Interior".

Director of Colonial Office (Settlers, City planning, considering future borders, navy-peacetime), also becomes Director of Intelligence (espionage and embassies)
Director of Infrastructure Office (responsible for all worker movements within term)
Central Bank Director (making financial decisions throughout term within rules)
Chief of Staff (All Operation level plans and tactical decisions within term)
Director of National Office (fighting cultural wars by working with governors and promoting science in the process in terms of builds, as well as making necessary amendments in the science queue throughout the term, additionally, approving and disapproving in all science deals with foreign powers proposed by FA/Trade)

In the interest of creating "less bureaucracy" which seems to be one of the prime complaints amoung the traditionalists, I would turn the Bank Director and Infrastructure Director into one office. Also, the Director of National Office seems like simply a hodgepodge of various duties. But I can't think of what to do with it right now (yes, I'm lazy).

Governors (Build queues, their own gold budget taken from resource trades their city makes and from the direct gold income, provincial tax rates can be set up by the Finance Minister, Governors could also have 1-2 work teams)
Finally, the Council of Governors could vote for major votes as provincial borders, provincial tax levels and other issues that give the governors some power beyond being a build queue league)

Hmm, this too is a whole mess of ideas that I don't really feel like touching right now.

So, in conclusion, here is my alterations of Provolution's plan:

Prime Minister Designated Player. In charge of coordinating and mediating between conflicting Ministries. In charge of all Mobilization and War Economy decisions, Drafts. Head of City Naming Office and Province Naming Office. Provides summary of every play session. Sets the Chain of Command.

Minister of the Interior (Roads, Mining and Agriculture, all non-city tiles to be worked. Also head of all Major Wonder builds and Cultural advancement)
Minister of Finance and Research(Techs and research, head of Sliders, taxmen, All fiscal policies related to sliders and rushes, setting up rules for all gold related activities for one term to be discussed and polled, responsible for Capital location and Forbidden Capital location and the Space Race builds)
Minister of Foreign Affairs and Trade (Everything negotiated in the Diplo-screen)
Minister of Military (All military land units, except escorts, plus navy in wartime, long term strategic planning, force composition, upgrade plans, military groupings, War Strategy Objectives, All Military Wonder builds)

Director of Colonial Office (Settlers, City planning, considering future borders, navy-peacetime), also becomes Director of Intelligence (espionage and embassies)
Director of Infrastructure Office (responsible for all worker movements within term, making financial decisions throughout term within rules)
Chief of Staff (All Operation level plans and tactical decisions within term)
Director of National Office (fighting cultural wars by working with governors and promoting science in the process in terms of builds, as well as making necessary amendments in the science queue throughout the term, additionally, approving and disapproving in all science deals with foreign powers proposed by FA/Trade)
Governors I'd keep these the same as always, but we can debate Provo's suggestions I suppose.

Judiciary The same as we've always had it.


This proposal could definately use some further discussion, but these are my 2 cents.

 

[Strider]

Well, hell, next time I want some discussion, I'll just mention something about not having enough detail.

 

[DaveShack]

Summary of current proposals:

...


This is just a summary of what's out there - I'm trying to keep this discussion moving and focused. Please refer to each specific propsal (DS on page 1, RF on page 3, Provo on page 4) for details.

-- Ravensfire

Well done, thank you very much for doing this!

 

[Provolution]

Actually I totally agree with Ashburnhams amendments, I got a moment of enlightenment, as I realized the governors sets all the build-queues. Hence, border governors need to watch for culture in order to protect their province from falling to the enemy, or can decide to attempt to expand it. We really do not need a culture minister. We can have citizen groups for that or let the governors do their job.

I would maintain the Central Bank separate, and maybe just delete the National Office.

 

[Chieftess]

Just remember that we only have so many people. That list (although it combines some, it seems to add more), along with governors once our civ gets huge, will surpass the number of active people in the demogame. Even with 7 officials, 3 judiciary members (in all forms) in DG1 and DG2 (didn't even bother trying in DG4 apparently), we started running out of people after about 10-12 governors.

I say we go with what worked previous demogames. The standard advisors, president, judiciary, and governors. Sure some have more to do than others, and that's the point. Someone that would like to be in a demogame, but doesn't have too much time might LIKE to have something like Culture. In fact, culture even means in-forum culture, not just in-game culture.

 

[Black_Hole]

Just remember that we only have so many people. That list (although it combines some, it seems to add more), along with governors once our civ gets huge, will surpass the number of active people in the demogame. Even with 7 officials, 3 judiciary members (in all forms) in DG1 and DG2 (didn't even bother trying in DG4 apparently), we started running out of people after about 10-12 governors.

I say we go with what worked previous demogames. The standard advisors, president, judiciary, and governors. Sure some have more to do than others, and that's the point. Someone that would like to be in a demogame, but doesn't have too much time might LIKE to have something like Culture. In fact, culture even means in-forum culture, not just in-game culture.

In my slightly modified version of DS's idea(and this is actually the direction DS was heading) is the 3 DP positions and all administrative positions(including judiciary) can be controlled by someone already having another office...

 

[Strider]

Time to go into detail, about my ideas with DaveShack's plan(hope you don't mind DS)

We first go into the Consuls:

President
Consul for Domestic Policy
Consul for External Policy
Consul for Culture Policy
Consul for Resources and Technologies Policy

President - In charge of strategic discussion, may call consul votes to make decisions for an absent advisor
Consul for Domestic Policy - Decides on things such as:
Settling style(loose, tight, etc); priority cities for worker actions; heavy spending or saving up gold?
Consul for External Policy - Decides on things such as:
Who to attack? Who should be our trading partners? Continental Takeover or diplomatic buildup? When should we take our continent? Pushes for military techs
Consul for Culture Policy - Decides on things such as:
Rush lots of culture? Build lots of wonders or not? Pushes for techs that come with a culture improvement
Consul for Resources and Technologies Policy - Decides on things such as:
Which path of tech tree to go along? Trade luxes back and forth, or hog them?

As I said before, if we really want to have more information on the forums, we need don't need fewer departments.

Consul Votes:
3/4(1 member absent) votes required to decide things for absent consul
4/5 Needed to overridea consul(if consul is not making decision based on WOTP)

Whoa, looks like council votes from the old DG's, I thought you were against those?

Commander of the Armed Forces - Micromanages military, suggests governors to build specific units... All within guidelines set by External Consul(i.e. no creating large army when a small one is decided upon)
Director of Commerce - Approves/denies requests by governors for rushs(when not in despotism or communism),... withing guidelines of domestic consul, decides on lux/science sliders...within guidelines of domestic consul, micromanages science... within guidelines of technology and resources consul
Director of Infrastructure - Determines worker actions and reviews requests from governors... within guidelines of domestic consul
Governors & Mayors - Set tiles and queues in cities
Director of Expansion - Determines settler locations and movement of transports carrying settlers... within guidelines of domestic consul
Director of Foreign Affairs and Trade - Determines exact trades to do... within guidelines of resources/techonologies consul and external consul

I don't see anybody, in either the short-term or long-term planning commissions, that is allowed to manage treaties, spaceships, Espionage, worker actions (I see the priority of worker actions, but who decides exactly how many, and what to be made?). I'm sure if I really wanted to, I could find several other things missing from this proposal. Even more so, it's not exactly that detailed, what if war is declared on us by a rival civ? What happens then? It's not exactly long-term planning, but it will most certainly screw with that.

 

[Cyc]

This has actually turned into a really interesting thread. I think it should get the "Thread of DG5" Award. You people have a lot of good ideas. You just need to spend the next couple of weeks figuring out how to make all the gears match up so the big wheel will turn. Keep voicing your opinion.

 

[Black_Hole]

As I said before, if we really want to have more information on the forums, we need don't need fewer departments.



Whoa, looks like council votes from the old DG's, I thought you were against those?



I don't see anybody, in either the short-term or long-term planning commissions, that is allowed to manage treaties, spaceships, Espionage, worker actions (I see the priority of worker actions, but who decides exactly how many, and what to be made?). I'm sure if I really wanted to, I could find several other things missing from this proposal. Even more so, it's not exactly that detailed, what if war is declared on us by a rival civ? What happens then? It's not exactly long-term planning, but it will most certainly screw with that.

I am against spot votes not council votes... Council votes are voted on in the forum only be consuls and the president not by people at the chat.

Ummm did you miss director of infrastrutute? It cleary says that person is in charge of worker actions... I just added treaties, which i guess you missed. But spaceships and espionage can be added.

 

[Black_Hole]

Well done, thank you very much for doing this!

just a question that still hasnt been answered:
is there anyone in your proposal on the tactical level that is incharge of trades, foreign affairs, and espionage?

 

[DaveShack]

just a question that still hasnt been answered:
is there anyone in your proposal on the tactical level that is incharge of trades, foreign affairs, and espionage?

Trades and treaties are in the F4 screen together and would be handled by the Director of Commerce (ok poorly named) who would control sliders, F4 screen, and budget. The reason for combining this is that treaties and trades are often package deals.

Espionage is actually something we tend to forget. Policy would obviously be a collaberation of Domestic Affiars (budget) and External Affairs (due to its effect on relations). Gotta think on that one a bit, thanks for pointing it out.

This makes me wonder how many other ancillary actions we have left out of both these proposals and the traditional structure. I remember there were a couple of items in DG5 which resulted in JRs because there was a fine line between two departments, or nobody officially in charge.

When thinking about how to assign work, do it in two phases:

• When you play civ, what are you thinking about when you decide to use a game feature?
• When you play civ, how do you group an action with other actions?

Then go through the user interface and make sure you have every button press and mouse click assigned to someone. Once all decisions and actions are assigned, then look at the balance and the interfaces between the people who could be filling those slots.

 

[GenMarshall]

I have read through Provo's propsal and it seems to be the only alternative government that I would support.

ATM, I am still favoring the traditional government, now for reasons of employment. What I mean by "reasons of employment". Remember in the various times when we had lots of possitions and yet nearly eather 1/2 or 1/4 would be left unfilled. IMO, that would be an inefficant government structure. With an alternative government, this open offices factor would become even greater if we create new offices. With the Alternative Government structures, I predict that we would only fill about 50%-33% of the offices, including the governorship possitions.

If I was forced by gun point to chose which governemt style to chose (and apperently I am, being one of the minority that supports only the traditional government ) I would have to chose Provo's proposal with a modification in the Domestic department (or the office that deals with Domestic Affairs) to take care of any unfilled governor spots.

Why the change of heart on Provo's new governorship? Let's just say that I have been ignorant and very resistant to change. Sourt of like being in a conservative(-like) party in the Demogame. Provo is the one that has modivated me to move from the conservative line to a moderate/centrist line and accept some changes to the government structure of the Demogame.

 

[Black_Hole]

I have read through Provo's propsal and it seems to be the only alternative government that I would support.

ATM, I am still favoring the traditional government, now for reasons of employment. What I mean by "reasons of employment". Remember in the various times when we had lots of possitions and yet nearly eather 1/2 or 1/4 would be left unfilled. IMO, that would be an inefficant government structure. With an alternative government, this open offices factor would become even greater if we create new offices. With the Alternative Government structures, I predict that we would only fill about 50%-33% of the offices, including the governorship possitions.

If I was forced by gun point to chose which governemt style to chose (and apperently I am, being one of the minority that supports only the traditional government ) I would have to chose Provo's proposal with a modification in the Domestic department (or the office that deals with Domestic Affairs) to take care of any unfilled governor spots.

Why the change of heart on Provo's new governorship? Let's just say that I have been ignorant and very resistant to change. Sourt of like being in a conservative(-like) party in the Demogame. Provo is the one that has modivated me to move from the conservative line to a moderate/centrist line and accept some changes to the government structure of the Demogame.

well 33% ?!?!??!!?
lets see currently we have 9 positions without governors, in this proposal we have 10.
So according to my math (33*10)/9 we will have 36% of the government filled if we stay traditional. Plus, more people in this positions can get the exact type of job they wanted, so I think we can find the additional person.