Dial Back The Paranoia Meter

Patroklos

Deity
Joined
Feb 25, 2003
Messages
12,721
I definitely agree that we have way too much security I find it funny that many of those advocating the soviet-esq bunker mentality for pols are 'good ole fashion patriotic americans'(I actually am one btw) Gen. Petraeus has gone without Any type of body armor in Iraq for several years without incident.

How is a simple X-ray and a few entirely non intrusive liquids limitations a bunker mentality :rolleyes:

I go through more security to get into a college football game, and that has been the case since I can remember attending them (1990).

I think its a lot to do with politicians loving to feel important it must be quite the ego trip to have secret service agents shove away the vulgar peasants just because your the rep from the 7th district of Wyoming.

You would be wrong. It is normally the security apparatuses themselves who have to reign in the politicians. It was the Secret Service that pretty much forced Clinton to abandon his morning jogs on the mall. Bush was notorious for deviating from secured areas to talk to onlookers. Obama's been relatively tame thus far, but I am sure he will start the chaff after a year or two.
 
Joined
Jan 16, 2006
Messages
2,267
Just strap your dr00gz to your privates. They want to avoid touching you there for fear of lawsuits and they have to blur out your junk on the scanners.
 

MobBoss

Off-Topic Overlord
Joined
Oct 28, 2005
Messages
46,853
Location
In Perpetual Motion
Just strap your dr00gz to your privates. They want to avoid touching you there for fear of lawsuits and they have to blur out your junk on the scanners.

No they dont.

And trust me, drug smugglers sticking their stash into their various orifices has been a known tactic for a very long time. Nothing new there.

Point is, the nay-sayers in regards to this have to make this look unreasonable, i.e. the 'bunker mentality' and 'soviet' comments....but if one simply looks at it intelligently, you find its nothing of the sort. It does indeed increase security with minimal inconvienance, and its simply not a big deal. The vast majority of people dont mind the slight delay for increased security at all. And like Pat said, I often face similar security measures just to simply get into a court room, or even some public schools.

Not a big deal.
 

civ_king

Deus Caritas Est
Joined
Mar 9, 2006
Messages
16,368
I definitely agree that we have way too much security I find it funny that many of those advocating the soviet-esq bunker mentality for pols are 'good ole fashion patriotic americans'(I actually am one btw) Gen. Petraeus has gone without Any type of body armor in Iraq for several years without incident.

I think its a lot to do with politicians loving to feel important it must be quite the ego trip to have secret service agents shove away the vulgar peasants just because your the rep from the 7th district of Wyoming.

EPIC LOLZ Wyoming only has one representative as do 7 other states, I live in what is considered a "small" town in California and it has 1/3 the pop of Wyoming
 

.Shane.

Take it like a voter
Retired Moderator
Joined
May 9, 2005
Messages
9,233
Location
NorCal
No. Pre 9/11 lines were more due to ticketing/baggage hassles not from security issues....but there were still long lines. Airports have since greatly modernized how you ticket (eticket anyone?) and check in streamlining the process, but now we have additional security measures to go through.
What I meant was that pre-9/11 carryons were x-rayed, you went through a metal detector and got the wand if you set off the detector. That's no different.

It has gone quite smoothly and without any real interruption.
My local airport (Sacramento) is fairly efficient as well, but that's not the point (at least not to me)
And thats a small price to pay for some increased security for airline travel.
Except its not more secure, you THINK it is, hence why its called security theater.

I think the point is that there really isn't any increased security as a result of taking off your shoes, having any significant amounts of liquid or anything remotely sharp or pointy confiscated, and getting your name checked against the secret Terrorist Watch List.
Exactly.

The watch list and the TSA horror stories are, to me, the worst of it.
And yeah, the bunker mentality for our politicians is a little disturbing, too. And many of the politicians that have multiple full-time security/police bodyguards favor disarming citizens, as well.
Its not that the politicians have a bunker mentality, its that the terrorfied citizens of the Terrorified States of America won't allow any real discussion that properly assesses risk to take place. Its easy to blame the politicians, but, like the media, they are largely giving us what we want.
 

civ_king

Deus Caritas Est
Joined
Mar 9, 2006
Messages
16,368
What I meant was that pre-9/11 carryons were x-rayed, you went through a metal detector and got the wand if you set off the detector. That's no different.


My local airport (Sacramento) is fairly efficient as well, but that's not the point (at least not to me)

Except its not more secure, you THINK it is, hence why its called security theater.


Exactly.

The watch list and the TSA horror stories are, to me, the worst of it.

Its not that the politicians have a bunker mentality, its that the terrorfied citizens of the Terrorified States of America won't allow any real discussion that properly assesses risk to take place. Its easy to blame the politicians, but, like the media, they are largely giving us what we want.

give the important people a bullet proof vest, a 9mm, training and one or two guards, (president should have 5-6)
 

Tabster

Prince
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
431
I may be mistaken but upon closer inspection of the photo it appears that the little girl/potential terrorist has slipped the grip of the adult restraining to her left, and could be going for a detonator in her front pocket. Should she have been handcuffed at this point perhaps? Or did a sniper have a bead on her? I do hope that there wasn't any tragic consequencies due to this potential security failure.
 

MobBoss

Off-Topic Overlord
Joined
Oct 28, 2005
Messages
46,853
Location
In Perpetual Motion
My local airport (Sacramento) is fairly efficient as well, but that's not the point (at least not to me)

But shouldnt it be? If its being done efficiently, and without a lot of hassle...whats the problem?

Except its not more secure, you THINK it is, hence why its called security theater.

We can argue how much more secure it is, but I think it is indeed more secure, without question.


Well, I am simply going to have to disagree in my opinion that those measures do indeed increase security.

Point being, you dont have to go through grandoise procedures to have an impact upon your security, and a small measure, like limited liqueds and/or removal of pointy/sharp objects, does indeed help. This is one of those type of situations where just a little bit of effort goes a very long way. And if its not a hassle...again, I fail to see the problem.

The watch list and the TSA horror stories are, to me, the worst of it.

Exceptions exist to every rule. The vast majority of travelers are not affected by this in any way.

Its not that the politicians have a bunker mentality, its that the terrorfied citizens of the Terrorified States of America won't allow any real discussion that properly assesses risk to take place.

When I am at an airport, I dont see 'terrorfied' people. I see people simply going about their business. And you using 'terrorfied' as a descriptor is simply anothe exaggeration of the situation.

And again, fwiw, I would rather see some small concession towards security as opposed to return to our pre-9/11 level of apathy.

Its easy to blame the politicians, but, like the media, they are largely giving us what we want.

And there you have it. I do indeed think the vast majority of americans want their airports to be a bit more secure without an overabundance of problem. The measures enforced by the TSA give us that within reason.
 

Cheezy the Wiz

Socialist In A Hurry
Joined
Jul 18, 2005
Messages
25,238
Location
Freedonia
I just flew home from Phoenix yesterday and the security checks were nothing to whine about. Put your stuff in a bin so they can x-ray it, walk through a metal detector. What is so objectionable about that?

They only wand you if 1.) they don't have a walk through or 2.) they get an indication from the walkthrough that can't be reconciled right then and there.

When I went to Russia and back a few weeks ago, it was my first time on a plane. I was expecting all sorts of hassles with security and such, but it was really not problem at all. Like you said, just take your shoes and metal off, send everything through an x-ray scanner, and you're on your way. The only problem we had was that Pulkovo wouldn't let my girlfriend bring a bottle of hairspray on the plane home. But Dulles let her bring it? :crazyeye:
 

civ_king

Deus Caritas Est
Joined
Mar 9, 2006
Messages
16,368
When I went to Russia and back a few weeks ago, it was my first time on a plane. I was expecting all sorts of hassles with security and such, but it was really not problem at all. Like you said, just take your shoes and metal off, send everything through an x-ray scanner, and you're on your way. The only problem we had was that Pulkovo wouldn't let my girlfriend bring a bottle of hairspray on the plane home. But Dulles let her bring it? :crazyeye:

for all they knew your GF was a drug smuggler with the Mafia and the bottle was cocaine or something
 

Patroklos

Deity
Joined
Feb 25, 2003
Messages
12,721
What does the wand do that the gate doesn't?

The gate usually has lights along the height of it and when it detects something it will light up relative to where it detected the problem. It is just as sensative as the wand, but obviously not as good as specificaly locating the probem. If the thing lights up at the height of your shoulders, it could be something on either upper arm/neck/chest/etc. They will normally ask you to step back and check for anything you forgot and usually its some sort of bulky jewelary people for got to take up. If you walk through a few times and the offending metal can't be readilly located, you step off to the side wo you can be wanded to more accurately locate whatever is causing the problem.
 

GenMarshall

Highborne Night Elven Ghost Agent
Joined
Jun 17, 2002
Messages
43,794
Location
New Suramar City, Vekta, United Terran Systems
And thats a small price to pay for some increased security for airline travel.

"Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security." - Ben Franklin
 

MobBoss

Off-Topic Overlord
Joined
Oct 28, 2005
Messages
46,853
Location
In Perpetual Motion
"Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security." - Ben Franklin

Well, actually, the quote is more specific:

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin

There are no essential liberties at play here. No one is giving anything up.

And now for some other Ben Franklin quotes:

Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. - Benjamin Franklin

Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn. - Benjamin Franklin

By failing to prepare, you are preparing to fail. - Benjamin Franklin

Diligence is the mother of good luck. - Benjamin Franklin
 

GenMarshall

Highborne Night Elven Ghost Agent
Joined
Jun 17, 2002
Messages
43,794
Location
New Suramar City, Vekta, United Terran Systems
There are no essential liberties at play here. No one is giving anything up.

That's total BS! Constant long lines because security has to wand and frisk each single freaking passenger! Innocent people who are not terrorist are placed on the no fly list just because their name is similar to a known terrorist.

Pre 9/11 was way better than post 9/11 world of paranoia.
 

MobBoss

Off-Topic Overlord
Joined
Oct 28, 2005
Messages
46,853
Location
In Perpetual Motion
That's total BS! Constant long lines because security has to wand and frisk each single freaking passenger! Innocent people who are not terrorist are placed on the no fly list just because their name is similar to a known terrorist.

Pre 9/11 was way better than post 9/11 world of paranoia.

First of all.....Calm down.

Secondly, they dont 'frisk' each single passenger, freakin or otherwise. Nor do they 'wand' everyone.

And thirdly, no, you dont have some kind of essential civil liberty to board a plane without going through a security check, and its ridiculous to even try to claim such a right exists.

Didnt you just read cheesys comment about how it wasnt any big hassle to go through the airport?

Have you ever flown or even been through an airport? Ever? Because if you had, you might have realized that the problem you are complaining about simply is non-existent.
 

GenMarshall

Highborne Night Elven Ghost Agent
Joined
Jun 17, 2002
Messages
43,794
Location
New Suramar City, Vekta, United Terran Systems
Nice, MobBoss ignores the part about the innocent people who are law abiding citizens that are placed on the no fly list on the basis that their name is similar. "You're civil liberties arent being stripped" "the problem you are complaining about is non-existent", BS, PURE BS! Tell that to the man who is on the no fly list just because his name is similar to a terrorist. The sad part is, he cant get himself off the list.
 

MobBoss

Off-Topic Overlord
Joined
Oct 28, 2005
Messages
46,853
Location
In Perpetual Motion
Nice, MobBoss ignores the part about the innocent people who are law abiding citizens that are placed on the no fly list on the basis that their name is similar.

I already addressed that much earlier in the thread. Do you have any idea of what percent of people flying that effects? How small that number is in comparison to the number of people that fly?

And did you also know that there are ways to get your name cleared off that list?

People whos names are similar to those on the list can still fly, they just simply have to prove they arent the person on the list. Is it a hassle? Absolutely, but its not an overwhelming one, nor is the USA taking steps at such security measures stripping anyone of any essential liberties.

"You're civil liberties arent being stripped", BS.

Its not BS. I also notice you dropped your 'everyone gets frisked or wanded' allegation real quick. You also failed to answer my question as to whether you have flown or even been to an airport to see this stuff for yourself. Its obvious you havent, nor are you willing to listen to people who actually HAVE and indicate that its not that bad.

Tell that to the man who is on the no fly list just because his name is similar to a terrorist. The sad part is, he cant get himself off the list.

Yes they can. http://www.tsa.gov/approach/secure_flight.shtm

Additionally, Secure Flight will include redress mechanisms so that people who are concerned that they are on the list erroneously (sometimes because they have the same name as a known terrorist) can ask questions and potentially resolve false positive matches between their personal data and the watch lists. The Office of Transportation Security Redress will provide assistance for these individuals. For more information about the redress procedures, please visit our DHS TRIP page.

and: http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/customer/redress/index.shtm

The Department of Homeland Security's Travel Redress Inquiry Program (DHS TRIP) is a single point of contact for individuals who have inquiries or seek resolution regarding difficulties they experienced during their travel screening at transportation hubs--like airports and train stations--or while crossing U.S. borders. These could include:

denied or delayed airline boarding
denied or delayed entry into and exit from the U.S. at a port of entry or border checkpoint
continuously referred to additional (secondary) screening
Why DHS TRIP?
DHS TRIP is a central gateway to address

watch list misidentification issues
situations where travelers believe they have faced screening problems at ports of entry
situations where travelers believe they have been unfairly or incorrectly delayed, denied boarding or identified for additional screening at our nation's transportation hubs
DHS TRIP is part of an effort by the State Department and Homeland Security to welcome legitimate travelers while still securing our country from those who want to do us harm.

Who is DHS TRIP for?
People who have been repeatedly identified for additional screening can file an inquiry to have erroneous information corrected in DHS systems.

How does DHS TRIP work?
For those who encounter misidentification, Secure Flight will help prevent watch list name confusion by using DHS TRIP, the central processing point for redress inquiries. Requests received online will be routed for redress to the appropriate DHS components. Components will review the request and reach a determination about a traveler's status. Secure Flight will use the results of the redress process in its watch list matching process to help prevent future delays for misidentified passengers.

Is my information secure?
TSA takes the security of personal information very seriously. The personal information TSA collects is protected by the highest set of security protocol standards established by the federal government.

TSA regularly assesses and updates our cyber security protocols and programs to ensure the protection of both public and private data sources. Passengers seeking redress should feel confident that their personal data will be protected and used only for its intended purpose.

How is the information used?
The Department of Homeland Security safeguards the privacy of any personal information that you provide in your inquiry to DHS TRIP. The information that you provide will be used to process your request for redress. More information on DHS TRIP and your privacy.

And here is one more great Ben Franklin quote for you:

The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself. - Benjamin Franklin

:goodjob:

I think you should back away slowly from this one civg. Your going to get embarrased real quick if you continue.
 

GenMarshall

Highborne Night Elven Ghost Agent
Joined
Jun 17, 2002
Messages
43,794
Location
New Suramar City, Vekta, United Terran Systems
People whos names are similar to those on the list can still fly, they just simply have to prove they arent the person on the list. Is it a hassle? Absolutely, but its not an overwhelming one, nor is the USA taking steps at such security measures stripping anyone of any essential liberties.
Do you carry everything to prove that you are not on the list? Especially if you have no knowledge until the time you are told by security that you are on the no fly list. It's an overwhelming hassle to prove that you are not the person on the list. The Fly List is a joke and a violation of civil liberties. There should be a better way to PREVENT such false positives from happening in the first place, but I guess whom ever decided to create the Terror Watch List did not take into account when they first started it.

If the same false positive passanger who proved that he is not the same person as the list, he or she STILL has to go through the process all over again and prove to the agent and the security that they are not on the list.

Its not BS. I also notice you dropped your 'everyone gets frisked or wanded' allegation real quick. You also failed to answer my question as to whether you have flown or even been to an airport to see this stuff for yourself. Its obvious you havent, nor are you willing to listen to people who actually HAVE and indicate that its not that bad.
I have actually flown and no I have not failed to answer your so called question. I have been in an airport. I have not dropped the "everyone gets frisked and wanded", I still stand that they do get frisked and wanded. Like a medal detector is not enough to prevent someone with a pair of bombshoes from going in.

And did you also know that there are ways to get your name cleared off that list?
Yes they can. http://www.tsa.gov/approach/secure_flight.shtm
It does not make any mention on how to get your name off the list.


And here is one more great Ben Franklin quote for you:
You can pull all the Franklin quotes out of your butt as much as you can. It wont help in defending the authoritarian Bush Administration.

I think you should back away slowly from this one CivG. Your going to get embarrased real quick if you continue.

I aint backing away from anything. AND FOR THE LOVE OF GOD LEARN TO CAPITALIZE MY NAME RIGHT!

Again, the pre 9/11 world is a far better place than a post 9/11 world. I'd like to see the United States return back to the Pre 9/11 world and before Bush rubbed his grubby hands on the Consitution like if it was his personal napkin.
 
Top Bottom