Did Raistlin Cast “Summon Jerks”?

[BvBPL]

I logged onto a social medium site today, and someone posted in a D&D group about Weis & Hickman suing Hasbro over the cancelation of a Dragonlance book deal. A band of dweebs correlated the cancelation and lawsuit with recent representation issues, perceived or otherwise, in Dungeons and Dragons broadly. While these issues were referenced in passing in a legal statement made by a representative of Weis & Hickman, but it’s clear the essential issue is a breach of contract, not some sociological concern.


For someone who joined a group to have more fun playing Dungeons and Dragons, the errant ranting was very much unwelcome. Even more irksome, it’s hardly limited to that specific hobby. I follow, as adjacent to my personal interests, groups devoted principally to Games Workshop’s Warhammer 40,000. If you aren’t familiar with 40k, you would be rendered agog by the amount of handwringing people exhibit over whether not plastic toy soldiers should include women.


On reflection, this behavior strikes me as particularly curious given political concerns rarely come up while actually doing these hobbies. I’ve gamed with people having a wide spectrum of opinions, but real-life political and social concerns rarely come up while playing. We’re too busy having fun playing make-believe. And when it does come up, it’s a deliberate effort by the person organizing the game, and it’s so heart-on-the-sleeve that players know it will be a factor in the game. So it doesn’t just come up by surprise.


Peeps gotta lay off inputting this stuff in the middle of discussions about book deals. They need to shout their opinions in appropriate spaces.

 

[Zardnaar]

Dragonlance hasn't been good in years and the cast summon jerks year's ago with the Kender.

After inflicting Kender on DMs I don't have much sympathy. Dragonlance can die in a fire.

 

[Gorbles]

As a longtime Warhammer player, I can indeed confirm there are a lot of men unduly angry about the idea of women being allowed to be Space Marines. What happens in that case is entirely up to GW. Would be fun to see them change the lore more dramatically than "ten thousand years have passed and we made Space Marines tougher".

Dragonlance I'm far less read up about, but I think it's also a situation where nobody is going to have the answers. Maybe it was a direct breach of contract, maybe it wasn't. Given the legal nature of such an action, I doubt you or I would ever be able to get the proper account.

That said, I'm far less on board with you telling people to lay off posting opinions on . . . a social media site. I mean, that's kinda exactly what social media sites are for (as well as news, sure). It seems like "appropriate spaces" means "spaces I'm not a part of", and unless you own that specific space, you're likely out of luck.

 

[Zardnaar]

The unholy abomination.

 

[Zardnaar]

As a longtime Warhammer player, I can indeed confirm there are a lot of men unduly angry about the idea of women being allowed to be Space Marines. What happens in that case is entirely up to GW. Would be fun to see them change the lore more dramatically than "ten thousand years have passed and we made Space Marines tougher".

Dragonlance I'm far less read up about, but I think it's also a situation where nobody is going to have the answers. Maybe it was a direct breach of contract, maybe it wasn't. Given the legal nature of such an action, I doubt you or I would ever be able to get the proper account.

That said, I'm far less on board with you telling people to lay off posting opinions on . . . a social media site. I mean, that's kinda exactly what social media sites are for (as well as news, sure). It seems like "appropriate spaces" means "spaces I'm not a part of", and unless you own that specific space, you're likely out of luck.

I'm not a fan of female space marines. Mostly because I hate recons.

Not opposed to females getting more prominence or new female focused novels/products)factions etc. Bioengineered female psykers sign me up.

I'm not a Warhammer fan as such I've read the wiki a bit. Doesn't interest me that much as a product line, world building not to bad.

Both Warhammer and Dragonlance are up there in terms of silliness.

 

[Gorbles]

I'm not a fan of female space marines. Mostly because I hate recons.

Not opposed to females getting more prominence or new female focused novels/products)factions etc. Bioengineered female psykers sign me up.

I'm not a Warhammer fan as such I've read the wiki a bit. Doesn't interest me that much as a product line, world building not to bad.

Both Warhammer and Dragonlance are up there in terms of silliness.

If you hate retcons I have bad news for you about most of Warhammer's history

 

[Zardnaar]

If you hate retcons I have bad news for you about most of Warhammer's history

I don't care about Warhammer that much.

Doesn't really matter how diverse they make Warhammer it's never really going to appeal to women en masse.

 

[Gorbles]

I don't care about Warhammer that much.

Doesn't really matter how diverse they make Warhammer it's never really going to appeal to women en masse.

Like I said, up to GW.

Back to Dragonlance for a second though, as there used to be a few novels I read, and this random board game called Mage Stones my parents were semi-addicted to when I was young . . . but I had no other exposure to the setting. And Raistlin casting "summon jerks" seems, well . . . pretty on-point for Raistlin, haha. Very much the classic "genius but arse trying to save the world in his own unknowable way" trope (which I loved, especially when I was younger). Warhammer (Fantasy) used to have someone similar (Teclis), who then went and became a god, so. I guess it works out sometimes.

 

[Zardnaar]

Like I said, up to GW.

Back to Dragonlance for a second though, as there used to be a few novels I read, and this random board game called Mage Stones my parents were semi-addicted to when I was young . . . but I had no other exposure to the setting. And Raistlin casting "summon jerks" seems, well . . . pretty on-point for Raistlin, haha. Very much the classic "genius but arse trying to save the world in his own unknowable way" trope (which I loved, especially when I was younger). Warhammer (Fantasy) used to have someone similar (Teclis), who then went and became a god, so. I guess it works out sometimes.

Have you tried reading Dragonlance recently?

I tried a few years ago and it's not good.

 

[Gorbles]

Nah. I'm worried it won't hold up as well as it used to. Also have trouble with books these days, something to do with my mental state, I don't know. None of them hold me like they used to, and I have crates of fiction. I think I'm just in "young child parent mode", so a book is a liability with a toddler

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Too bad this thread wasn't posted in A&E where we have threads that talk about SF/F books, including Dragonlance (would you believe that the admin in charge of that forum is a Dragonlance fan?).

View attachment 572564
The unholy abomination.

I'd gladly take whatever of that pile of stuff I don't already have. I love Dragonlance, and Raistlin has always been my favorite character (though the fanfic I started writing is a crossover with Doctor Who and features Tasslehoff, Fizban, Sarah Jane Smith, and K-9).

I'm not a fan of female space marines. Mostly because I hate recons.

So how many historical space marines do we have now?

Zero. Unless you count the fact that all shuttle and ISS astronauts are required to be proficient at flying aircraft. This includes the women.

Not opposed to females getting more prominence or new female focused novels/products)factions etc. Bioengineered female psykers sign me up.

Would you like the milder version of "sexist much?" from me, or shall I cast "summon Mary" to really go off here?

It's one thing to gender-swap specific characters for no reason. I'm not into gender-swapped fanfic or remakes of old TV shows (just one of several reasons why I loathe nuBSG). But to state that women shouldn't be space marines, period... I recommend a book I'm currently reading, called Rimrunners, by C.J. Cherryh.

I'm not a Warhammer fan as such I've read the wiki a bit. Doesn't interest me that much as a product line, world building not to bad.

Not into Warhammer at all, but I've heard that much of it was plagiarized from Dune.

Both Warhammer and Dragonlance are up there in terms of silliness.

Then you haven't looked beyond the surface (of Dragonlance, at least).

Back to Dragonlance for a second though, as there used to be a few novels I read, and this random board game called Mage Stones my parents were semi-addicted to when I was young . . . but I had no other exposure to the setting. And Raistlin casting "summon jerks" seems, well . . . pretty on-point for Raistlin, haha. Very much the classic "genius but arse trying to save the world in his own unknowable way" trope (which I loved, especially when I was younger). Warhammer (Fantasy) used to have someone similar (Teclis), who then went and became a god, so. I guess it works out sometimes.

In the earliest, follow-the-module novel (Dragons of Autumn Twilight), Raistlin was a jerk.

There's still some question about whether he really managed to redeem himself by the end of Dragons of Summer Flame.

Have you tried reading Dragonlance recently?

I tried a few years ago and it's not good.

Spoilers ahead, in case anyone cares:

The non-Weis & Hickman novels are all over the map. The only complaints I have about the canon W&H material are the retcon they did about whether or not Usha was really Raistlin's daughter (the story about how Raistlin met and was intimate with a mysterious woman in the forest is told in one of the anthologies; she later bore a daughter with yellow eyes, like Raistlin's).

She should have been. But I guess they wanted to shoehorn a romance into Dragons of Summer Flame, so they retconned it so Usha and Palin wouldn't be committing incest via a cousin marriage (Raistlin's daughter and Caramon's son).

The second is about Steel Brightblade (son of Sturm and Kitiara). Yes, he served the Knights of Takhisis, and by definition, that makes him one of the bad guys. But he was honorable in a way that the Knights of Solamnia were not.

I'm mad that they killed him off.

 

[Zardnaar]

Too bad this thread wasn't posted in A&E where we have threads that talk about SF/F books, including Dragonlance (would you believe that the admin in charge of that forum is a Dragonlance fan?).


I'd gladly take whatever of that pile of stuff I don't already have. I love Dragonlance, and Raistlin has always been my favorite character (though the fanfic I started writing is a crossover with Doctor Who and features Tasslehoff, Fizban, Sarah Jane Smith, and K-9).


So how many historical space marines do we have now?

Zero. Unless you count the fact that all shuttle and ISS astronauts are required to be proficient at flying aircraft. This includes the women.


Would you like the milder version of "sexist much?" from me, or shall I cast "summon Mary" to really go off here?

It's one thing to gender-swap specific characters for no reason. I'm not into gender-swapped fanfic or remakes of old TV shows (just one of several reasons why I loathe nuBSG). But to state that women shouldn't be space marines, period... I recommend a book I'm currently reading, called Rimrunners, by C.J. Cherryh.


Not into Warhammer at all, but I've heard that much of it was plagiarized from Dune.


Then you haven't looked beyond the surface (of Dragonlance, at least).


In the earliest, follow-the-module novel (Dragons of Autumn Twilight), Raistlin was a jerk.

There's still some question about whether he really managed to redeem himself by the end of Dragons of Summer Flame.


Spoilers ahead, in case anyone cares:

The non-Weis & Hickman novels are all over the map. The only complaints I have about the canon W&H material are the retcon they did about whether or not Usha was really Raistlin's daughter (the story about how Raistlin met and was intimate with a mysterious woman in the forest is told in one of the anthologies; she later bore a daughter with yellow eyes, like Raistlin's).

She should have been. But I guess they wanted to shoehorn a romance into Dragons of Summer Flame, so they retconned it so Usha and Palin wouldn't be committing incest via a cousin marriage (Raistlin's daughter and Caramon's son).

The second is about Steel Brightblade (son of Sturm and Kitiara). Yes, he served the Knights of Takhisis, and by definition, that makes him one of the bad guys. But he was honorable in a way that the Knights of Solamnia were not.

I'm mad that they killed him off.

Warhammer space marines as males only have an in universe explanation.

Basically the bio engineering doesn't work on females.

Space marines in other fiction can be females as it's just training. The gene seed implants don't work on females.

Warhammer has other problems in that regard anyway but there is an in universe explanation. Space Marines aren't really human anymore.

 

[Zardnaar]

Nah. I'm worried it won't hold up as well as it used to. Also have trouble with books these days, something to do with my mental state, I don't know. None of them hold me like they used to, and I have crates of fiction. I think I'm just in "young child parent mode", so a book is a liability with a toddler

I tried rereading the originals few years back.

Not good. Aged badly. I'm not even talking about from a values have changed PoV since 1984 when they were written.

 

[Gorbles]

Warhammer space marines as males only have an in universe explanation.

Basically the bio engineering doesn't work on females.

Space marines in other fiction can be females as it's just training. The gene seed implants don't work on females.

Warhammer has other problems in that regard anyway but there is an in universe explanation. Space Marines aren't really human anymore.

For someone who doesn't care about the setting, you're very invested in the existing "reasons" why there "can't" be female Space Marines

Games Workshop literally just rewrote the rules for the Primaris Marines. It happens. Like I said, would be fun to see.

 

[Zardnaar]

L

For someone who doesn't care about the setting, you're very invested in the existing "reasons" why there "can't" be female Space Marines

Games Workshop literally just rewrote the rules for the Primaris Marines. It happens. Like I said, would be fun to see.

I know the Primaries thing hasn't gone down that well with alot of Warhammer fans.

I'm more opposed to in universe changes due to out of universe reasons.

If you want more diversity of female empowerment try being original instead of gender swapping stuff.

Bio engineered female psykers that don't get corrupted by the warp. That would be more interesting than yay female space marines.

Or bio engineered females that are super fast or something. Make em a bit different.

Biopsyker gene seed, doesn't work on males boom job done.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I tried rereading the originals few years back.

Not good. Aged badly. I'm not even talking about from a values have changed PoV since 1984 when they were written.

The Chronicles trilogy was novelized from a series of 12 AD&D dragon-themed game modules, and since I read those, I could see where in the novel the characters were presented with a situation and the likeliest options they might choose (most evident in the Pax Tharkas chapters). The Legends trilogy was not based on modules, although modules and source books were spun off from the novels. There were other novel trilogies spun off from the Legends books (the Kingpriest trilogy and the books about Lord Soth, in particular).

Not sure what you mean by values. I found nothing offensive about them other than the nauseating bigotry of the Qualinesti royal family, the Knights of Solamnia, and the self-righteous arrogance of Lady Crysania (if any character needed to be killed off... but I suppose it would go against the morality tale they were going for, which was the sin of pride).

As for the artwork for much of the Dragonlance novels, modules, and source books, I get that women in revealing chainmail is not as popular as it was back then. The images of Tika in her barmaid's blouse and chainmail and mismatched armor showing almost everything (Laurana gets plate armor while Goldmoon wears leather from head to foot) are cringeworthy.

But Larry Elmore was a talented artist, and I based one of my convention costumes on one of his paintings. I was considerably more covered up, though. But I incorporated some of Elmore's accessorizing ideas into my costume, thanks to my dad collecting magpie feathers for me and such.

 

[Zardnaar]

The Chronicles trilogy was novelized from a series of 12 AD&D dragon-themed game modules, and since I read those, I could see where in the novel the characters were presented with a situation and the likeliest options they might choose (most evident in the Pax Tharkas chapters). The Legends trilogy was not based on modules, although modules and source books were spun off from the novels. There were other novel trilogies spun off from the Legends books (the Kingpriest trilogy and the books about Lord Soth, in particular).

Not sure what you mean by values. I found nothing offensive about them other than the nauseating bigotry of the Qualinesti royal family, the Knights of Solamnia, and the self-righteous arrogance of Lady Crysania (if any character needed to be killed off... but I suppose it would go against the morality tale they were going for, which was the sin of pride).

As for the artwork for much of the Dragonlance novels, modules, and source books, I get that women in revealing chainmail is not as popular as it was back then. The images of Tika in her barmaid's blouse and chainmail and mismatched armor showing almost everything (Laurana gets plate armor while Goldmoon wears leather from head to foot) are cringeworthy.

But Larry Elmore was a talented artist, and I based one of my convention costumes on one of his paintings. I was considerably more covered up, though. But I incorporated some of Elmore's accessorizing ideas into my costume, thanks to my dad collecting magpie feathers for me and such.

Elmore's art I like but isn't going to go down well now.

Having this discussion about DL on other D&D forums.

Long story short WotC has gone woke. Negative racial modifiers are now taboo along with fixed ability score modifiers. The new spkatbook is making them all floats ng scores.

Also having orcs etc depicted as evil and aggressive us wrong because people have applied those traits to minorities.

Dragging this mentality to Dragonlance.

The Elves are toxic KKK supremists.

Gully Dwarves. Entire race of mentally challenged idiots who can't count to 5. They're also a product of miscegenation.

Kender. Entire race of thieves who take stuff without consent.

Tinker Gnomes.
Entire race of insane incompetents.

The books are also heavy on Mormon symbolism and Riverwind, Goldmoon etc are basically white but depicted as native American.

Stupid imho (Elmore artwork fair enough) but yeah.

I'm not religious and Mormon symbolism was never a problem for me.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Elmore's art I like but isn't going to go down well now.

Having this discussion about DL on other D&D forums.

Long story short WotC has gone woke. Negative racial modifiers are now taboo along with fixed ability score modifiers. The new spkatbook is making them all floats ng scores.

Also having orcs etc depicted as evil and aggressive us wrong because people have applied those traits to minorities.

Dragging this mentality to Dragonlance.

The Elves are toxic KKK supremists.

Gully Dwarves. Entire race of mentally challenged idiots who can't count to 5. They're also a product of miscegenation.

Kender. Entire race of thieves who take stuff without consent.

Tinker Gnomes.
Entire race of insane incompetents.

The books are also heavy on Mormon symbolism and Riverwind, Goldmoon etc are basically white but depicted as native American.

Stupid imho (Elmore artwork fair enough) but yeah.

I'm not religious and Mormon symbolism was never a problem for me.

What Mormon symbolism?

The original intent was to have a sweeping epic campaign involving 12 different dragons, whether chromatic or metallic.

The only characters' stories that didn't get a fair conclusion is Gilthanas and Silvara. They should have devoted a few chapters to them instead of all that foreshadowing BS that was just repeated in the next book. But the gaming challenge was so the DM could present this situation without the players immediately knowing that it wasn't really happening.

 

[Zardnaar]

What Mormon symbolism?

The original intent was to have a sweeping epic campaign involving 12 different dragons, whether chromatic or metallic.

The only characters' stories that didn't get a fair conclusion is Gilthanas and Silvara. They should have devoted a few chapters to them instead of all that foreshadowing BS that was just repeated in the next book. But the gaming challenge was so the DM could present this situation without the players immediately knowing that it wasn't really happening.

The king priest is the Catholic Church, the disks if mishkal are similar to what Joseph Smith found in Mormon doctrine.

The Que Shu also are similar to the Book of Mormon apparently. I don't know the details but I know Mormons have some different beliefs regarding native Americans.

Seekers and false gods another thing.

 

[Gorbles]

L


I know the Primaries thing hasn't gone down that well with alot of Warhammer fans.

I'm more opposed to in universe changes due to out of universe reasons.

If you want more diversity of female empowerment try being original instead of gender swapping stuff.

Bio engineered female psykers that don't get corrupted by the warp. That would be more interesting than yay female space marines.

Or bio engineered females that are super fast or something. Make em a bit different.

Biopsyker gene seed, doesn't work on males boom job done.

My dude, you said you're not that into Warhammer. Maybe you don't have your finger on the beating pulse of the general fan community

Anyhow, stuff is always changed because of "out of universe reasons". New editions are released due to a need to update the rules, and / or a need to sell more / better / newer stuff. It's a business first, on top of a fictional universe. I don't give two hoots that you - someone who isn't even apparently a fan - doesn't care for female Space Marines. That doesn't matter to me. What's more interesting is apparently how much you know about one specific thing in Warhammer 40k despite not being that into it.

EDIT

I missed your complaints about WotC "going woke". Negative stats for racial typing is outmoded design, and new editions of DnD are stronger for not having it. Assuming a classic stat-rolling experience, you're already at the mercy of the dice for the rolls you get. Having a -2 penalty on top of that for one or more stats just really pidgeonholes what you can do with the character.

Also, some races were genuinely just horribly balanced. 3.5ed, you'd never pick an orc unless you were going Barb, basically. Not without heading into extreme munchkin territory. Even half-orcs were better for the Fighter class.

I've got to say, props for providing the thread with some examples of making discussion around a game political, even if it wasn't the kind of politics the OP may have been referencing!