1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Did the Divine Mandate ever go away?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by inthesomeday, May 13, 2019.

  1. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,798
    Thinking about the moral justifications for monopoly on violence and realized a lot of them ultimately fall back on religion. The logical conclusion of most “that’s just the way it is” arguments is religious in form, at least, if not overtly so. Got me thinking: did the divine mandate ever really go away?

    Obviously it still determines the votes and consent to be governed of millions of westerners— especially Americans, so unfortunately many of whom are single-issue pro life voters— but to what extent is the divine right still the fundamental basis of at least American government? The traditional narrative is that the state gradually let this justification fall to the wayside in favor of a popular mandate construct. But in many ways it seems the logic justifying the existence and extent of the state is sort of implicitly religious.

    Thoughts?
     
    Hygro likes this.
  2. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Oh you can edit this

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2009
    Messages:
    7,170
    Speaking as someone who comes from a country where religion and religious thought is essentially absent from day-to-day life for most people, but where we still have a government and a state, I'd have to say I don't see the connection at all. Maybe if you've been immersed in a more religious culture all your life then this line of thinking is more likely to occur to you.
     
    inthesomeday likes this.
  3. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    16,593
    Religions are sort of more straightforward with their oughts, such as when violence ought be used, and punchy ought not words like sin. There are every bit as many secular oughts operating when you remove religion from the equation, but there tends to(predictably) be a lot of similar jumbling of the oughts with is's.
     
  4. inthesomeday

    inthesomeday Immortan

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2015
    Messages:
    2,798
    Where you from? Grew up in the US. Most definitely lots of religious influence on politics here.
     
    hobbsyoyo likes this.
  5. Lohrenswald

    Lohrenswald 老仁森林

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Messages:
    5,782
    Location:
    The end
    共產黨有天命
     
  6. Hygro

    Hygro soundcloud.com/hygro/

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2002
    Messages:
    22,302
    Location:
    San Antonio, Texas
    I too wonder this.
     
  7. Perfection

    Perfection The Great Head.

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2002
    Messages:
    49,772
    Location:
    Salisbury Plain
    If Donald Trump.was divinely mandated then God is a jerk.
     
    hobbsyoyo and Birdjaguar like this.
  8. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Oh you can edit this

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2009
    Messages:
    7,170
    Little England. I mean we literally have representatives of the Church of England in Parliament, so I suppose I can't exactly say there is no religious influence on politics whatsoever, but I don't think it factors into the reasons behind the average person's acceptance of the authority of the state, which is what you seemed to be getting at.
     
  9. GoodSarmatian

    GoodSarmatian Blackpilled Idealist

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2006
    Messages:
    9,460
    Gender:
    Male
    It was an important part of our cultures for hundreds of years. Hard to get rid of it, and f-ing Calvinism certainly didn't help.

    内部矛盾.
    The Mandate of Heaven is burgeois superstition.
     
  10. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Oh you can edit this

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2009
    Messages:
    7,170
    It's worth noting that a lot of those who claim to have a religion, don't really mean what you might think that means from an American point of view. I know there are surveys where significant chunks of people who identify as "Christian" also state that they don't believe in God. Even most of the ones who do, treat it as a rather distant and impersonal concept. Any talk of actually praying or "feeling God's presence" or anything like that is usually met with worried glances and smirks.
     
    Silurian likes this.
  11. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    16,593
    Sounds delightful.
     
    Hygro likes this.
  12. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Oh you can edit this

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2009
    Messages:
    7,170
    I presume you meant that sarcastically, but I wholeheartedly agree with a non-sarcastic reading.
     
    Hygro likes this.
  13. Farm Boy

    Farm Boy The trees are actually quite lovely.

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2010
    Messages:
    16,593
    Oh no prob, you're delightful too.
     
    Hygro likes this.
  14. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Oh you can edit this

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2009
    Messages:
    7,170
  15. Lohrenswald

    Lohrenswald 老仁森林

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2013
    Messages:
    5,782
    Location:
    The end
    Gongchandang has the mandate whether they like it or not

    皇帝習近平萬歲
     
  16. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Oh you can edit this

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2009
    Messages:
    7,170
    Just an anecdote, but I fairly recently attended a funeral which had lots of mentions of god and various prayers. Everyone went along with it, and most people knew the Lord's Prayer by heart, but at the wake afterwards pretty much everyone was talking about how odd/silly/unexpected it was. And that's for a funeral, one of the few social occasions where most people would expect at least some exposure to that.
     
  17. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2005
    Messages:
    16,303
    Location:
    Tir ná Lia
    Oh, the divine mandate is alive, but it has taken on a secular character and is seldom openly declared. Occasionally, though, when rulers are confident of their power, they're more forthright.

     
  18. Manfred Belheim

    Manfred Belheim Oh you can edit this

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2009
    Messages:
    7,170
    Can't really argue with the last sentence though.
     

Share This Page