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[DIETY] Boudica in: Bad karma strikes back! (All warmonger pangaea)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by shakabrade, Jul 10, 2012.

  1. sossos

    sossos King

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    The strategy is always much more important than tatics and micro management.

    If you always play without S/L, you'll understand how important to get a right position. With micro managerment and optimizing skills, you can easily make up that several turns. However, if you are blocked by AIs without strategic resources, the whole game will be tough.

    Even if you will not be blocked on this map, it is still statistically correct to settle 7 tiles away instead of at the corner. Only with bigger territory, you can have higher probability to get one of the strategic resources: copper/horse/iron/elephant.

    As to the standard Pangea with high sea level, it seems a very natual decision.
     
  2. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    This thought is divine. I logged in just to say that. :D :goodjob:

    Is that a hidden message? I tend to hidden messages everywhere...hum. Indeed, someone who gets that far on the first attempt has something to share. Time to open my eyes wide and start scrutinizing you thought process in your strategies.

    Ah time, where are you? I need it now.
     
  3. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Hey,sossos you are totally right. On High Sea pangaea this is very smart move. It can postpone your victory date a bit if your starting spot had everything you need, but this move enhances chances of victory itself.

    I did a test for myself and acted as if I didn't know anything about the map and my sole purpose was blocking land. So I moved my settler and scout in such manner that I made sure I know I am still on a peninsula so noone potentially gets behind my back and this is where I got:
    Spoiler :

    There are even Mountains symbolizing gates of the empire.

    This trick will be bookmarked in my mind from now on. Still wouldn't advise it on fractal maps.
    I hereby declare this move noncheese.:)


    Edit:

    @Tachy
    I can share this: read SGOTM threads. But I know you did. I followed two SGOTMs from start to finish, teams: PD, Kakumeika and OSS and got many level ups by doing so.
    It somehow affected me and I know I play much better since then, although I still can't make myself pay attention to many details and micro and actually don't know much mechanics behind the game. I leave that to my subcounsciousnes. There is still too many holes in my play and still can make rookie mistakes simply because I won my first deity game exactly one year ago and find myself a rookie. And it was cheesy WC rush with HoFfish start(lol, notice how cheesy, WC and rush can have whole other meaning together).

    So answer is simple: You don't learn from me simply because I don't have systematic knowledge expressed through facts like you do. That is also reason why I don't participate in Civ Illustrated much, I just don't know all those stuff and anything about code.
     
  4. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    It also gives you a much much better capital for commerce. :3
     
  5. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    Still not what i'd call a good move in most games..
    you settle towards Monty, not Gandhi ;)
    On Sossos screenie he has 6 cities already, he could have DoW him by now.
    You also wander 3 turns and with some bad luck you find him settling his 2nd city before your nose.
    While you wander, you see desert. *This* time there was an oasis, but that's not really something you can count on, and if you find no commerce you will be behind badly.
    And all after you moved off a PH with Pigs..sorry but i played enuf games, if you'd have 1 try on a map you wouldn't move on ~~
     
  6. Zx Zero Zx

    Zx Zero Zx Deity

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    I personally wouldn't move that far to settle, but it's a little better of a capital if you had zero knowledge of the map. :3
     
  7. Snaaty

    Snaaty Deity

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    @ shaka:

    Spoiler :

    what made me move down there:
    i was looking for a better spot for capital innitially moving inland, then seeing the fish with my scout, thinking, hey settling here i cant settle the fish later so why not settle on the plains hill down there, fish + pigs + brown hill are nice... ...i still guess the brown hill is better for the instant 2hammers then settling next to it, cause short term >>> long term

    the main reason i didnt go back to the innitial spot with the settler was simply the fact it was already turn 3 or 4 and i couldnt bring myself to loose any more turns (and i dont really like reloading because wandering off with the starting settler is a gamble, sometimes you win, sometimes you loose)

    why no archery:
    this one is easy ...no land, no research, no archery (there even wasnt the need of fogbusting, so i didnt even bother to build warriors for that). and after loosing the phants spot +glh i simply decided to gamble. what really helped in my game was the fact that monty went after rome or the other way round very early and i could join the budda-love-feast of the mighty warmogers early + closed borders monthy/shakka (monty only dropped to cautious cause i declined his request to declare on rome because i feared shakka who is best friend of rome).

    settling the islands:
    well... ...i had sailing anyways thanks to my heroic plan to try on the glh. but scouting the costline of the map, i already had seen space for 6 cities (thats all you need): 4 on my peninsula (1 supercrappy, see my original marker), 1 island towards shakka, 1 island far down northeast). so seeing it would be to late for glh, whipping a gally seemed simply the right (and only) thing to do. the other islands i only discovered after the first island city was settled. so i simply kept whipping settlers in capital size 4-2 settling what i could. the island northeast still isnt settled btw, but i doubt it would still be available...

    another trick is to give ANY resources you have early for free (here fish + pigs) to your most dangerous neighbour. i havent done any code-digging on that but at least it seems to me it makes them more reluctant to go for you

    so all in all in this game, im confident monty will go after shaka not me and that he will be at least pleased soon with me again

    wandering inland:
    yes, i can second that. but with absolutely no map knowledge, you can see in my game, where it might end, so this is absolutely NO guaranty to get where you want (i started with wandering to the nearest plains hill inland with my settler, then seeing i would block a fish when settling there, turning around, ending up finally... ...you know where...

    -> in the end, on hard maps, you simply have to adapt on the given (if you really want to do without reloading), meaning with few and bad cities and no wonders you have to find a way to keep up in reasearch with what you have. thats why i opted for a "super-capital-light" approach. and it hasnt even started, i still dont have bureau, nor academy, nor settled GS (nor palace:rolleyes:). play it like an OCC with some minor helper cities
     
  8. Snaaty

    Snaaty Deity

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    yup, have tested, can confirm, wont move there:lol:
     
  9. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Reason I am analyzing your moves so thoroughly is simply you're Snaaty. Someone I can learn a lot from.
     
  10. sossos

    sossos King

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    I only need 3 food surplus for any of my city at the beginning. Even if there is no oasis, I'll find somewhere to meet my needs. The purpose of this move is to block, just like a lot of players will do for the 2nd city. If you'd like to do so for your second city, why not block with your first settler?
    The move to block is a trade-off between glorious victory and high-rate victory. If you are confident to win most of the deity games, you won't care the first 2~3 turns. The most critical issue to the high-rate victory is not fancy start/capitol, but the territory and strategic resource determined by the territory. When I move out and I can see all the shore line in this game. I'm so sure that all those flood pain will be mine if I block. So what to worry?
    I don't care that this move will bring me lower points at the end of the game. My play is only for high-rate victory, without S/L but with high probability.

    I put all my espionage points on Monty, so I know what he's researching. His expansion (6 cities) retards his tech advance. Therefore I chose to get archery right after he got iron working. With 4 cities, and the food engine, whipping archers is very quick and harmless for a charismatic leader. Not to mention that I can research masonary and build "Dun" with the stone.

    Regarding the commerce: if there is less commerce, my city expansion might be slower and I may research fishing earlier. This is something you can adjust, not the clutch.

    I even had the chance to get the horse, but that's risky and what I won't try.
     
  11. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    @Sos you are playing Deity, you cannot say "hey i would move 5 turns if needed, so i can block" ;)
    Your Capi will in most cases be worse, if you leave the spot where most peoples settled.
    You lose time. You settle towards Monty here.

    Sure, this time your move might work..but there are so many things that can go wrong, if you say "look here is my ultimate solution for these blocked in problems" i must say "No" :)
     
  12. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    This really can be a good move, but on declared all warmonger map, you know it is not smart thing to do. I got killed when I tested that approach. Long before phants would be available.
     
  13. Snaaty

    Snaaty Deity

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    @ shaka:

    easy solution for fish and pigs if you have neither AH or fishing (and start on a PH + have a forestPH near):

    start on worker, research fishing, switch WB using forestedPH (6 turns), start growing on a warrior to time with researching AH since you have now a max. food tile available (you have 4 turns, but i think you only need 2 or 3, dont remember exactly), resume worker, pasture will finish exactly the turn city grows to size 2
     
  14. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    Up for sossos, happy to see you here :goodjob:

    I do like to argue that sossos has a point here, however risky and unorthodoxe his approach might seem. It can be justified by some basic reasoning:

    1) Born on a peninsula on a high sea-level standard Pangaea. In a medium sea-level standard Pangaea game, human player can expect 4-6 cities on average; on this map, my expectation can drop to 3-4 if SIP, based on previous experience and map understanding. We can presume if we can find a food resource 5-9 cases away and settle nearby, it's highly conceivable to add 1-2 cities to our expectation, plus at least +30% of chance of getting access to Copper/Horse/Iron.

    If no AI is boxing us in, which is highly doubtful, we loose a few turns and miss a better cap; more probably AI blocking us, and the payoff is high and worth the risk.

    2) A scout ensures the scouting efficiency. It's much much handy than a warrior to find the first settlement.

    I would rather point out that sossos' openning is arguable on some other points apart from the initial settlement:
    1) city defense. City on the front line had better be settled on hill.
    2) archery and archers may be on a higher priority.
    3) a dogpile war against Aztec is viable. I would prefer having less cities but of better quality, e.g. 4th city settled for pig/rice/fish.
     
  15. sossos

    sossos King

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    Yes, I know it's worse, but still winnable worse. Remember, those good spots are still mine. And for capital, I like its culture more than its potential after civil service. I convert to vassalge in more games.

    When I move out, I don't know who is beside me. Even if it is Monty or Shaka, I'm still confident that I can survive with archers. I always put an eye on their military strenth, the best unit and their border, so I can decide when to research archery.

    As long as I have a river, losing 3 turns is not a disaster to me, even in deity. In stead, by running 7 tiles away, I can be sure that I can build 5 cities. Yes, I lust for territory, expecially in a stanard map of high sea level. If it is low or medium, I may not do so.
     
  16. shakabrade

    shakabrade Praise Vivec!

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    Superb. Worker'd decay a bit, but it doesn't really matter too much.


    And dingding is here! Glad to see some quality argument on moving inland.
     
  17. sossos

    sossos King

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    @dingding

    Glad to see you here, too. Are you going to be back to civ 4?

    with you:
    1. yes. standard pangea+high sea level makes me incline more to blocking. Maybe in 80% of the deity games, it is worse---less points in the end. But you know, I'm fighting for the remaining 10% to 20%.
    2. scout is very helpful here. Not only to find a good spot, but also to reduce the uncertainty.

    Elaboration on your arguments:

    1. hill is better, especially for dun + stone. I take this risk because Monty is focusing on expansion in the first 60 turns, the horse city is his sixth one, very late. As a return, I can get the fish at least 10 turns earlier and less border conflict.
    2. With the same reasoning, I saw that Monty's best unit is always archer. After he starts to research iron working and build the horse city, I start to research archery. I think celts owns this flexibility because hunting is its starting tech.
    3. I had considered the pig city for a while, but finially I still chose flood plain which is closer and connected. I have neither copper nor horse, so I have to go for contruction for the elepult war. Beaker is my current pursuit as the tech is still the bottleneck: at least I need masonary for better defence, writing/(sailing) for trade commerce. I still need to calculate later whether the 5th city may or may not do any good to beeline construction.
     
  18. jihe

    jihe Prince

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    You capital is far too important to be just a blocking city. 3 food surplus is not good enough, especially if they are floodplains.
     
  19. Snaaty

    Snaaty Deity

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    no, no, no:D

    thats the best about this, no hammers decay, see:

    6 turns WB with PH + forestPH, leaving you with 4 turns without decay. you need 2-3 if i remember right to time the worker + city growth with getting AH + getting pasture done exactly when city growth to size 2

    that´s why a costal start with seafood + PH + forest PH is really strong if played right (and why i opted to plug my capital still down there, knowing all the downsides)
     
  20. kossin

    kossin Deity

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    Well well, if it isn't the old crew back all in the same place ;)

    dingding has a point. When you know the map settings ahead of time ("handpicked" like in this case), guaranteeing yourself additional cities is never a bad move, provided you find a decent settling location.
    Back in Vanilla Deity, moving the capital inland was a common approach to secure more cities... once you've hit enough cities, you'll be able to pull yourself out of the mess either with GPP or espionage.
     

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