Difficulty changes

[Rmi]

Quick Question:

Are the changes in difficulty in c2c the same as in BtS?

 

[Thunderbrd]

No, but we strive to make it similar.

 

[Noriad2]

For the hardest difficulty, you need Deity+nightmare mode. I estimate that that is roughly Emperor/Immortal difficulty in BTS, if you don't use exploits.

 

[JosEPh_II]

For the hardest difficulty, you need Deity+nightmare mode. I estimate that that is roughly Emperor/Immortal difficulty in BTS, if you don't use exploits.

Really? Still that low? The modifiers comparison between Vanilla Deity and C2C on Deity-Nightmare says otherwise.

Vanilla Deity section for player:

<iUnitCostPercent>100</iUnitCostPercent>
           <iResearchPercent>130</iResearchPercent>
           <iDistanceMaintenancePercent>100</iDistanceMaintenancePercent>
           <iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>100</iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>
           <iMaxNumCitiesMaintenance>8</iMaxNumCitiesMaintenance>
           <iColonyMaintenancePercent>150</iColonyMaintenancePercent>
           <iMaxColonyMaintenance>200</iMaxColonyMaintenance>
           <iCorporationMaintenancePercent>150</iCorporationMaintenancePercent>
           <iCivicUpkeepPercent>100</iCivicUpkeepPercent>
           <iInflationPercent>100</iInflationPercent>
           <iHealthBonus>2</iHealthBonus>
           <iHappyBonus>4</iHappyBonus>
           <iAttitudeChange>-1</iAttitudeChange>
           <iNoTechTradeModifier>20</iNoTechTradeModifier>
           <iTechTradeKnownModifier>0</iTechTradeKnownModifier>
           <iUnownedTilesPerGameAnimal>20</iUnownedTilesPerGameAnimal>
           <iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianUnit>25</iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianUnit>
           <iUnownedWaterTilesPerBarbarianUnit>250</iUnownedWaterTilesPerBarbarianUnit>

Now Caveman2Cosmos Nightmare Deity:

<iUnitCostPercent>225</iUnitCostPercent>
           <iResearchPercent>225</iResearchPercent>
           <iDistanceMaintenancePercent>200</iDistanceMaintenancePercent>
           <iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>200</iNumCitiesMaintenancePercent>
           <iMaxNumCitiesMaintenance>180</iMaxNumCitiesMaintenance>
           <iColonyMaintenancePercent>150</iColonyMaintenancePercent>
           <iMaxColonyMaintenance>100</iMaxColonyMaintenance>
           <iCorporationMaintenancePercent>150</iCorporationMaintenancePercent>
           <iCivicUpkeepPercent>225</iCivicUpkeepPercent>
           <iInflationPercent>190</iInflationPercent>
           <iHealthBonus>2</iHealthBonus>
           <iHappyBonus>4</iHappyBonus>
           <iRevolutionIndexPercent>180</iRevolutionIndexPercent>
           <iAttitudeChange>-1</iAttitudeChange>
           <iNoTechTradeModifier>20</iNoTechTradeModifier>
           <iTechTradeKnownModifier>0</iTechTradeKnownModifier>
           <iUnownedTilesPerGameAnimal>10</iUnownedTilesPerGameAnimal>
           <iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianUnit>5</iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianUnit>
           <iUnownedWaterTilesPerBarbarianUnit>70</iUnownedWaterTilesPerBarbarianUnit>
           <iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianCity>45</iUnownedTilesPerBarbarianCity>

Of course we do have a few more modifiers as well.

Now for the AI, Vanilla:

<iAIAnimalBonus>-40</iAIAnimalBonus>
           <iAIBarbarianBonus>-25</iAIBarbarianBonus>
           <iStartingDefenseUnits>0</iStartingDefenseUnits>
           <iStartingWorkerUnits>0</iStartingWorkerUnits>
           <iStartingExploreUnits>0</iStartingExploreUnits>
           <iAIStartingUnitMultiplier>1</iAIStartingUnitMultiplier>
           <iAIStartingDefenseUnits>4</iAIStartingDefenseUnits>
           <iAIStartingWorkerUnits>1</iAIStartingWorkerUnits>
           <iAIStartingExploreUnits>1</iAIStartingExploreUnits>
           <iBarbarianDefenders>4</iBarbarianDefenders>
           <iAIDeclareWarProb>100</iAIDeclareWarProb>
           <iAIWorkRateModifier>100</iAIWorkRateModifier>
           <iAIGrowthPercent>80</iAIGrowthPercent>
           <iAITrainPercent>60</iAITrainPercent>
           <iAIWorldTrainPercent>100</iAIWorldTrainPercent>
           <iAIConstructPercent>60</iAIConstructPercent>
           <iAIWorldConstructPercent>100</iAIWorldConstructPercent>
           <iAICreatePercent>60</iAICreatePercent>
           <iAIWorldCreatePercent>100</iAIWorldCreatePercent>
           <iAICivicUpkeepPercent>60</iAICivicUpkeepPercent>
           <iAIUnitCostPercent>60</iAIUnitCostPercent>
           <iAIUnitSupplyPercent>50</iAIUnitSupplyPercent>
           <iAIUnitUpgradePercent>50</iAIUnitUpgradePercent>
           <iAIInflationPercent>80</iAIInflationPercent>
           <iAIWarWearinessPercent>50</iAIWarWearinessPercent>
           <iAIPerEraModifier>-5</iAIPerEraModifier>

AI C2C:

<iAIAnimalBonus>-40</iAIAnimalBonus>
           <iAIBarbarianBonus>-25</iAIBarbarianBonus>
           <iStartingDefenseUnits>0</iStartingDefenseUnits>
           <iStartingWorkerUnits>0</iStartingWorkerUnits>
           <iStartingExploreUnits>0</iStartingExploreUnits>
           <iAIStartingUnitMultiplier>1</iAIStartingUnitMultiplier>
           <iAIStartingDefenseUnits>8</iAIStartingDefenseUnits>
           <iAIStartingWorkerUnits>2</iAIStartingWorkerUnits>
           <iAIStartingExploreUnits>1</iAIStartingExploreUnits>
           <iBarbarianDefenders>7</iBarbarianDefenders>
           <iAIDeclareWarProb>150</iAIDeclareWarProb>
           <iAIWorkRateModifier>100</iAIWorkRateModifier>
           <iAIGrowthPercent>25</iAIGrowthPercent>
           <iAITrainPercent>50</iAITrainPercent>
           <iAIWorldTrainPercent>50</iAIWorldTrainPercent>
           <iAIConstructPercent>100</iAIConstructPercent>
           <iAIWorldConstructPercent>40</iAIWorldConstructPercent>
           <iAICreatePercent>50</iAICreatePercent>
           <iAIWorldCreatePercent>50</iAIWorldCreatePercent>
           <iAICivicUpkeepPercent>50</iAICivicUpkeepPercent>
           <iAIUnitCostPercent>50</iAIUnitCostPercent>
           <iAIUnitSupplyPercent>50</iAIUnitSupplyPercent>
           <iAIUnitUpgradePercent>5</iAIUnitUpgradePercent>
           <iAIInflationPercent>20</iAIInflationPercent>
           <iAIWarWearinessPercent>10</iAIWarWearinessPercent>
           <iAIPerEraModifier>0</iAIPerEraModifier>

The modifiers paint a different picture don't they?

The player has it harder and the AI has it easier in C2C than in Vanilla BtS. With a few variables that could be outliers.

EDIT: I do see a critical modifier that needs adjusted to fall back in line with the trend with this visual comparison, it is the iAIConstructPercent. We have made the AI have the same build cost as the Noble player, ie 100%. This needs to be dropped to at least the vanilla level of 60.

This is an area (all Handicaps) that is on the ToDo list for rebalancing for C2C.

EDIT2: This will also need looked at for regular C2C Deity.

 

[Noriad2]

@JosEPh_II: I'm not talking about modifiers and numbers, I'm talking as a player's feel about the overall difficulty in beating the AI. I find that the AI tends to play relatively defensive. It rarely sends in a proper doomstack, and usually only sends in a few sniper units to kill workers and do the occasional pillage.
In the very rare cases that the AI does indeed send in a full doomstack, just hitting it a few times with horse or elephant units makes that doomstack withdraw again. I always play deity or deity/nightmare and it has been years since the last time I lost one of my own major cities to the AI.

 

[Noriad2]

P.S. my latest Deity+nightmare game is going well. It's early industrial era, I have just become tech leader, am number one with 6320 score and 50 cities, the number 2 has 20 cities and 4000 score (plus 3 vassals). With 36% of world population and 41% of land area I'm not too far off from a domination victory.

 

[Noriad2]

However this game I talked about may be skewed by the fact that the number 2 civ is completely wrecked by crime. As soon as the AI is better at dealing with crime, I consider C2C Deity/Nightmare comparable with BTS immortal.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Is this current SVN? Still having that much trouble with crime?

 

[Noriad2]

SVN 9658

 

[Noriad2]

@ Thunderbrd: I'll post a save game (see attachment). India is wrecked by crime, I have enough spy points that you can view inside some of its cities.

Some of his cities are hopeless (crime in the many of thousands), and go through revolt after revolt. In some of the cities the situation is just bad but manageable if the AI would sell off some crime-producing buildings.

Problem is, the AI never sells off crime-producing buildings.

Many of his cities have Conspirator's hideout (+15 crime) Assassin's den (+10 crime) auction house (+5 crime) highwayman's hideout (+15 crime) mercenary camp (+5) mercenary stables (+5 crime) smuggler's shanty (+10 crime) total +65 crime/turn. And that is not even all of the crime-producing buildings.

Neglecting propagation to/from neighbouring squares, this would make crime approach towards 65x25 = 1625, enough to wreck any city. If the AI would just delete some of these buildings if crime is about to go out of control, the AI would have a lot easier time dealing with crime. Such buildings should have tresholds: don't build certain buildings unless the effective crime level (the level it is floating towards) is below a certain treshold, and delete the building if crime if above a certain treshold.

 

[Noriad2]

The other nations have crime well under control, so I don't know why India has such troubles with it. He doesn't have any traits that cause extra crime.

 

[Rmi]

I've always played noble/prince in CIV games because it seemed fair. But it just seems too easy at the moment because you can really crank up the incremental advantage in the early game. Looking for the right options to get the diff i want now. Want to make it easier for the NPC's not nessecarily harder for me. Would also like to try angry barbs but read that that just kills the NPC's dead.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Buildings should never have to be avoided or sold off. The question is always, why has he undertrained LE units to respond properly?

I also wonder if he's built the anti-crime buildings properly. This reminds me that there may be an issue with that - perhaps they are building crime buildings to respond to the need to reduce crime.

 

[Rmi]

How does the selling deleting work? Do you have to have that burrito cheat enabled?

 

[Noriad2]

CTRL-A to delete buildings

 

[Noriad2]

The amount of money you get from selling buildings is lower than stated though. The 20% stated is applied twice, giving you only 4% of the hammer cost in money.

 

[Rmi]

Money seems irrelevant for now in my games, but deleting polluters and crime buildings is handy after you no longer need m.

 

[JosEPh_II]

@JosEPh_II: I'm not talking about modifiers and numbers, I'm talking as a player's feel about the overall difficulty in beating the AI. I find that the AI tends to play relatively defensive. It rarely sends in a proper doomstack, and usually only sends in a few sniper units to kill workers and do the occasional pillage.
In the very rare cases that the AI does indeed send in a full doomstack, just hitting it a few times with horse or elephant units makes that doomstack withdraw again. I always play deity or deity/nightmare and it has been years since the last time I lost one of my own major cities to the AI.

Well those numbers do set the field of play so your "feel" comes from them. And other modifiers too.

The AI being defensive is something we've had problems with before. And the AIDeclareWarProb is set at 150 for C2C but only at 100 for vanilla. Perhaps this variable is not centered on 100 but rather on 0. So our 150 is going in the wrong direction. Will need to test what happens if C2C is set to 50 vs 150. I will also need to check the AIWeight as well.

I will say that I get good game play from the AI on Emperor and Immortal. I get attacked early but after I've rebuffed the 1st invasion it does slow down too. There are some GlobalDefines that deal with area too.

Do you want the AI to be suicidal in it's attacks? Or do you want them to continue to go "turtle" with their defenses.

 

[Noriad2]

To conquer an older city, you need a proper doomstack - enough siege stuff to take down the city defense bonus, and then enough offensive units to kill the defenders, and then some units to hold the new city. Attacking with less than that is like trying to get a nail into wood by pushing it with a hammer - it doesn't work. You need to give the nail a hard bang. If the AI doesn't come with such a stack it is at best annoying but not dangerous. Sometimes it comes with units but not enough siege - ineffective. Sometimes it comes with enough siege but not enough offensive units - ineffective.

 

[Noriad2]

Buildings should never have to be avoided or sold off. The question is always, why has he undertrained LE units to respond properly?

Whenever I conquer an enemy city, I first delete all the +crime buildings. Once it is out of anarchy I build the usual anti-crime buildings. Due to high crime, the city starts starving. If I still have slavery I whip excess pop away. The lower pop means less crime production and the city eventually stabilizes before Revolution become an issue.

Sometimes this isn't enough, especially when there are multiple criminals lurking in the city, and then I build a bunch of law enforcement to deal with it.

Point is - sometimes the AI fails to get crime under control. In that case, deleting crime producing buildings should be part of its repertoire. Just like players have.