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Dingding’s Deity Challenge – Gandhi: India’s Conquest

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by dingding, Jan 26, 2010.

  1. dingding

    dingding Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2009
    Messages:
    408
    Location:
    Dijon, France
    Welcome to my first challenge game in CFC :)

    On this map of Continents, I’ll be facing only one AI on my own continent and the other 5 on the other one. This kind of games is very challenging mostly because we hardly have any possibility to trade tech with the only neighbor before he contacts the other continent. In addition, the diplomacy with the other continent is extremely delicate.

    Writing posts in English, which I abandoned for years, is not easy (I would prefer to write in French…). Please feel free to ask for further explanation if I’m not clear with my poor English.

    I’m also aiming for a constructive discussion about the best strategy and tactic. PLEASE don’t hesitate to give any personal observation or critique if you have.

    Summary:
    Part I: Oracle Gambit (#2)
    Part II: The Optics Race (I) (#55)
    Part III: The Optics Race (II) (#85)
    Part IV: The Optics Race (III) (#119)
    Part V: The other 50% of the game (#121)

    Some interesting discussions:
    1. ABigCivFan's openning (#42)
    2. Duckweed's try (#81 and #95)
    3. Some ratios in Civ 4 (#86 )
    4. Expansion and Control: something about Renaissance Expansion (#113)

    Here is the initial save. Feel free to try it yourselves:king:
     

    Attached Files:

  2. dingding

    dingding Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2009
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    408
    Location:
    Dijon, France
    Let’s start:

    The birth place is pretty good. I move the warrior 1NE to confirm there is no other resource behind and settle down Delhi at the initial spot.

    Spoiler :
     
  3. dingding

    dingding Prince

    Joined:
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    408
    Location:
    Dijon, France
    Fortunately I’ve got a productive and food-plenty capital. Easy to run SE and FE with a ton of food. It’s not, however, an excellent capital to run CE with only 6 river-tiles available for cottages.

    Since we’ve already revealed the eastern and western ocean, my experience with Continents maps indicates that the continent is probably a small one: I don’t expect to meet more than two competitors on it.

    It’s doubtful that there will be an AI to the south. The warrior is set to move north, pass through the jungle and contact my neighbor(s), if there is any.

    Spoiler :


     
  4. dingding

    dingding Prince

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2009
    Messages:
    408
    Location:
    Dijon, France
    Considering these factors:
    1) I’ve got a good SE capital capable to support 3-4 specialists at the early of the game (Writing and CoL needed);
    2) Easy swift between Slavery (FE) and Cast System (SE) with Spi (prioritize BW and CoL);
    3) Early expansion pressure seems little, as all my neighbors are likely to be the other side of the jungle. (minus for REX)
    4) I can exploit two 6-output resources (wheat and corn) and one 4-output resource (cow) with only one tech (Agriculture).
    5) Most of the BFC’s tiles are impossible to work before BW.
    6) Tropical resources and gems are likely to be found around in the jungle. IW is needed to exploit them. (plus for IW and Calendar)
    7) Early religion sounds nice. But it’s risky to try to found one, and Agriculture + BW will be delayed.
    8) Bars from the south will bring some trouble, and Bars in the jungle seem to prefer to settle down than attack.

    Conclusion:
    1) FE and SE are prioritized at the early of the game, CE combo capital will be developed later.
    2) REX is not necessary before IW (to confirm; depends on how deep the jungle is);
    3) Techs prioritized: Agriculture > BW and IW > CoL > Maths and Calendar;

    A complicated analyze usually brings a simple action:
    Delhi starts with a worker.
    Agriculture is my first research.
    Warrior moves north to explore the jungle.
     
  5. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    Location:
    Gone fishing for the summer
    If you're going to cottage your capital, it's better to do it sooner so that they'll actually reach village/town status before you get to the renaissance era.
     
  6. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Of course, at first you want to bang out a few settlers first before the capitol transitions to that though. Otherwise, expansion is too slow and you'll miss sites.
     
  7. budweiser

    budweiser King of the Beers

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Hidden Underground Volcano Lair
    Spoiler :
    That opening shot looks like a map script error that spams trees in you BFC. It usually means a neighbor is close. It also forces you to open a certain way, which I do not believe was intended by the designers. Many times I re-roll if I dont feel like chopping trees.
     
  8. shyuhe

    shyuhe Deity

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    Location:
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    True, but that's what I find myself burning trees for. I'm not entirely sure if it's optimal but I have a tendency to chop my first few settlers while working cottages. Maybe it's better to work farms and mines during that phase? Of course that requires more worker turns (farm--mine--cottage as opposed to cottage--chop)...
     
  9. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

    Joined:
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    I'm not sure either. I never settled on one thing, sometimes whipping, sometimes chopping, sometimes trying to build them @ cap.

    Worker turns are not an immaterial bottleneck either though, as you point out. Especially not on deity where there is incentive to spam out settlers ASAP just to block in time.
     
  10. euripides

    euripides Chieftain

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2007
    Messages:
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    Location:
    Germany
    This capital clearly looks like a production site. With all those hills, you can reach 22h and +3F at 8 pop. I would farm the rest of the grasslands for regrowth and spec abuse, and later workshop. To the north along the river is my first bet for a nice commerce city (either you find food up there or borrow the wheat).
     
  11. ABigCivFan

    ABigCivFan Emperor

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,059
    Location:
    LA
    I would go Ag-BW-AH, river cow is too good to delay. It gives 3 more :hammers: for 2nd worker/settler building. I ll get 2nd worker out while working Corn/cow/wheat if not pressed for a settler.

    I like a good Burea capital to be:

    1. Food rich (fast growth, support prod and cottages)
    2. Hammer rich (can get the infrus and wonders built quickly)
    3. On River (extra commerce and levee hammers)

    This capital satisfy all these conditions to be a super burea capital, it has enough food to support all hills and river cottages. I double you ll find a better commerce site than this. So I would suggest use this capital early for worker/settler/escort pump, settle an early prod city to take over the job and transition the capital to cottages ASAP, then put an Academy here. Early cottages get better and specialists dont until Constitution. Early commerce are just so important on Deity to support REX/research, you cant even run merchant until Cur/COL, I just think the cottages are safer.

    Edit: I forgot this is a Philo leader, you can still switch between specs (gpp) and cottages (growth). See if you can find another food rich spot to take over the GP farming.
     
  12. Artichoker

    Artichoker Emperor

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,711
    Good choice of leader for this map...although I think CRE has more synergy with PHI than SPI does, in typical games.

    Try to get Code of Laws soon, so that you can make a convenient switch to Caste System. However, I recommend against overutilizing your specialists until you have a well-developed economy. Often, city growth and production is better than early specialists, even if you have the capacity to run an unlimited number of them.
     
  13. dingding

    dingding Prince

    Joined:
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    408
    Location:
    Dijon, France
    Thank you for your replies above. Quite interesting discussion:

    About cottaging the capital, to shyuhe and TMIT:
    Spoiler :

    I don’t think a capital should be necessarily cottaged ASAP.

    I mean, the growth of a cottage/hamlet/village needs 10 turns/ 20turns/ 40 turns. You spend most of the time on the growth of a village to town. However, there is only 1.5 :commerce: of difference between village and town under Bureaucracy, which we will normally still adopt for a while after the Renaissance.

    To my mind, the first two or three blocking settlers are much more strategic than some early cottages, in particular on some crowded maps like Pangaea.

    However cottages should not be postponed after 2/3 settles. Otherwise we’d probably fail to obtain the first Classic tech (Alphabet, Aesthetics, Horse Riding, etc.) on time and miss the first tech exchange.

    About the capital, to euripides and ABigCivFan:
    Spoiler :

    Three alternatives for the capital: CE city, GP Farm and hammer city. I think in the early eras (before the Renaissance) it’s able to support two of these three functions, but not three all, unless I find marble to build the GL.

    ABCF’s proposal is an efficient one. I would have done the same thing but finally I took a different way. I will explain it later.

    About leader and trait synergy, to Artichoker:
    Spoiler :

    PHI+SPI give us the best of the both worlds of high GP and high hammers, by swifting between Slavery and Cast System, or Organized Religion and Pacifism. Secondly on a map of separated continents, SPI helps a lot to handle the diplomacy by swifting the religion and civics.

    CRE could be the most powerful trait at the early 100 turns, especially on a crowded map, but during the 200 turns of the game that follow, frankly it seems to be the weakest one.
     
  14. dingding

    dingding Prince

    Joined:
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    408
    Location:
    Dijon, France
    Turn 6:
    My warrior meets Willem’s scout. That means his capital is 12-14 tiles to the north. And the jungle is 6-8 tiles deep.

    Turn 10:
    Warrior finds a good site: a good blocking point and some easy commerce with two gems. I would consider settling down my second or third city here, exploiting the gems to support my economy at the early stage.

    Spoiler :



    Agr finished. I’ve got three options for the second tech:
    1) BW=>(Wheel/Pottery/AH)=>IW: common and efficient expansion strategy
    2) Masonry=>BW=>(Wheel/Pottery/AH)=>IW: build the GW and support a Great Spy SE
    3) Meditation=>PH=>Writing=>BW: build the Oracle, bulb CoL and make a early SE

    When I’m making a strategic decision, I’ll consider three elements: Cost, Return and Risk.

    Cost: Option 1 < Option 2 = Option 3: postpone BW and rush for early wonder means you&#8217;ll put back the first settler for 15-20 turns, the second one for 10-15 turns.

    Return: Option 1 < Option 3 < Option 2: Apparently on a continent which is not crowded, a REX is not necessary (minus for Opt 1). A food rich capital, which can support an early SE of 3 spe, is a plus for Option 2. A Great Spy worth 3000 EP, that&#8217;s about 3000-4000 beakers, and I can easily get two with PHI.

    Risk: Option 1 < Option 3 < Option 2: I can build the GW at around turn 40 and Oracle at around 45. According to my experience, the possibility is 50% for the GW and 80%+ for the Oracle.

    I choose Option 3 which is a good medium of the three.
     
  15. dingding

    dingding Prince

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Dijon, France
    Turn 20:
    Willem founds Hindu.
    No other AI contacted, and I still don&#8217;t have EP advantage to him.

    Turn 30:
    Good news: Hindu spreads to Delhi. I convert to it immediately without hesitation because I confirm we are located on an isolated continent (no EP advantage till turn 30).

    Spoiler :

    The situation becomes delicate, strategically, I have two choices:

    1) Try to get Friendly with Willem and enable the tech trade: I can set up a city just on his border and gift it to improve our relation. Peace +1, Open Border +2, Religion +3, liberate city +1, unequal trade +4, I can just get +11 and Friendly.

    2) Not to do anything. He&#8217;ll be pleased with me. No tech trade with him except for a few unimportant techs. A little war risk which can be partially avoided.

    Too early to decide. I don&#8217;t know if I&#8217;ll have enough cities and find a rubbish one to gift it away. Let&#8217;s just finish the Oracle.
     
  16. dingding

    dingding Prince

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Dijon, France
    Turn 42:
    Writing finished. Open border with Willem to improve relation.

    Turn 45:
    The Oracle finished and bulb CoL. Found Confucism in Delhi.
    I change to Cast System without delay. I need 3 pop to be scientists:
    1) I’d rather have a GS than a Great Prophet as my first GP.
    2) I don’t want them to work on a 3-output tiles. That’s too low.
    3) I need beakers to accelerate BW, enabling chopping and whipping.

    Spoiler :


    Turn 50:
    Unfortunately, a GP is born with a possibility of only 20%. &#61516;
    He’s not bad but I hope to have a LOT of GS to beeline the Optic and Liber.

    Turn 51:
    BW finished. Change to Slavery and whip my first settler.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I feel it's better to explain this micro operation clearer after discuss with Artichoker:
    Spoiler :

    I've got two way to make the settler:

    1) Not to change the civic. Build settler with all the pops on the tiles.
    At turn 51, settler comes up. Delhi pop = 6: production 5F 11H 0G
    At turn 55, BW finished.

    2) To change to CS. Build settler with 3 pops on tiles and 3 scientists.
    At turn 50, a GP born and settle down in Delhi. Unlock the pop restriction in Delhi.
    At turn 51, BW finished, Delhi grows to 7 pop, change to Slavery, whip 2 pops for the settler.
    At turn 52, settler is built. Delhi pop = 5: production 7F 10H 5G (with a GP) or 7F 9H 6B (with a GS). In addition, Fast Worker chopping = 6.67H/turn.

    1 turn and 1 pop bring an additional output of 2F 5.67H 5G or 2F 4.67H 6B PER TURN and an acceleration of research (3*3*6=54 beakers).
     
  17. dingding

    dingding Prince

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    Location:
    Dijon, France
    Despite a good efficiency of early CE in typical games, I’m not going to run it on this map. Instead, I chose an early SE.

    In fact, as REX is not needed on this map, I have time and hammers to build the Oracle. With CoL, a PHI leader with an early SE strategy can easily generate two GP at the 70-80 turns, which can double the research capacity. That’s awesome.

    And the two gems in the jungle are important: they will help me to pass through the difficult period of economic transition (SE=>CE). When Philosophy is bulbed, with Pacifism a CE/SE combo economy will be established.

    As for the tech tree, I’m going to beeline Optics first (Metal Casting=> Machinery+Compass =>Optics bulbed by a GS), according to my experience, I can obtain Optics at around 250AD. Meanwhile I’m not going to miss Philosophy, which enable a stronger SE and will keep my Liber safe, so Maths and Alphabet should be researched (Alphabet can be acquired by trade however) to bulb Philosophy.
     
  18. RRRaskolnikov

    RRRaskolnikov Goldfish

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Paname
    Hi,

    I wonder what makes you think that (REX not needed)? You haven't explore your continent iirc (you talked about EPs turn 20, but what is the situation now)? I hope you will still get a decent amount of land to work with.

    Running caste this early is unusual but I do agree that was a nice move here (when I saw the screenie, I thought you were crazy :lol:). Will lurk with interest :goodjob:

    Cheers,
    Ras
     
  19. Duckweed

    Duckweed Deity

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    A single warrior in turn 45, I don't understand how do you deal with the barbarian. I would not recommend this kind of risk.
     
  20. Kid R

    Kid R Emperor

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    1,483
    You seem to think and write very clearly, and that is much more important than the language. Good job. :goodjob:

    Looking forward to seeing how this plays out. From the opening post I assume the game is already played and won :lol:
     

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